STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

kisa · Dooney & Bourke

Freedom of speech in schools

rocky · Coach

Interesting...I think the fact that they are getting tickets for public disturbance which revolves around the effect their speech has and not for the actual speech itself makes it legal?? I am no lawyer.

halleybird · Hermes

I am no lawyer either, but I have some background in student first-amendment freedoms. I don't think freedom of speech protects profanity. Students in public high schools do have first-amendment rights per Tinker v. Des Moines (private school students do not), but this does not protect them against anything that "substantially disrupts the school day" which profanity can do in some cases. Furthermore, obscenity is not free speech. Also, schools are granted "en loco parentis" responsibilities, so they may act in a parental manner.

Now, if these kids were wearing Anarchy shirts, discussing political beliefs, etc., that would definitely be a lawsuit. But from what I remember, judges like to back schools in cases like this. The only thing I'd be worried about is a kid getting fined after being misheard, i.e. saying "spit" instead of "sh*t" etc.

Personally, I wish they'd do this at my school. I had to sub for another teacher's class last month and a kid called me a "f*cking bitch" for asking him to return to his assigned seat.

kisa · Dooney & Bourke

All manner of speech is free speech, providing it is not slanderous. Were the students disrupting the school day in a slanderous manner I can understand non-monetary consequences being issued by the school, or perhaps some legal action taken by the parties involved.

The problem is not that the school is acting in a parental manner, the problem is that the courts and fines are involved. Having a standard fine of 103$ is not representative of any pain and suffering or damages actually caused by the disruptive language, and therefore it is not justifiable.

Furthermore, the only place that wearing anarchy tee shirts, and discussing politics constitutes a lawsuit is a political dictatorship.

PS: Your avatar is fruggin' adorable!

Maddie · Coach

kisa wrote:

All manner of speech is free speech, providing it is not slanderous.

First of all, the above statement isn't true. The classic example...you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

Also, the way you are defining this issue isn't really about free speech. You say that it's ok for the school to discipline the students, just not by incurring fines. By your definition schools incurring fines as a punishment is limiting the students freedom of speech, giving detention or something is not. Why is this the case? The effect (speech being limited) is the same. So why does the manner of punishment determine whether this is about free speech or not? Either one is equally limiting free speech, you just disagree with one execution of it. It sounds like your real problem isn't about whether or not students should be allowed to swear, it's whether or not fines should be used as a disciplinary measure.

blubirde · Chanel

Being a lawyer, but not an expert on first amendment issues, I'd say if a student took the case to court, the fine wouldn't hold up. That's my instinct. I could say all the profanity I wanted on a street corner and can't be fined because of it. (Police would probably try and arrest me but it they wouldn't have any viable charges.) If I was drunk, I guess I could get a public intoxication citation but that's it.

However, I think if a student was disrupting a classroom with profanity, as in halleybird's example, I have no doubt a court would uphold an reasonable punishment, just as if they'd disrupted by throwing a desk or a book or something. Fines? Probably not. Detention? Probably okay.

I bet those schools have an army of lawyers that told them it was okay to do that though.

halleybird · Hermes

blubirde wrote:

Being a lawyer, but not an expert on first amendment issues, I'd say if a student took the case to court, the fine wouldn't hold up. That's my instinct. I could say all the profanity I wanted on a street corner and can't be fined because of it. (Police would probably try and arrest me but it they wouldn't have any viable charges.) If I was drunk, I guess I could get a public intoxication citation but that's it. However, I think if a student was disrupting a classroom with profanity, as in halleybird's example, I have no doubt a court would uphold an reasonable punishment, just as if they'd disrupted by throwing a desk or a book or something. Fines? Probably not. Detention? Probably okay. I bet those schools have an army of lawyers that told them it was okay to do that though.

I agree with this. But it would never get to court. Trust me, school districts are all about buckling to parents' demands and settling out of court.

You know, as much as I would love the little hellions at my school to be fined, the school is overlooking the real issue, which is that some teenagers have a hard time distinguishing appropriate and inappropriate behavior in a professional setting. I think they'd have better results if they worked on that problem. IMO the swearing is a symptom, not a disease.

MissMee · Kate Spade

I think people sometimes take their First Amendment "rights" too far or too literally. How is it freedom of speech to cuss out your teacher? I'd say that could be under the offense of "disturbing the peace," which could be an arrestable offense. I personally think it's great that a student is fined for cussing in school, more specifically at a teacher/authority. Cussing while standing at your locker talking privately, not so much. Detention doesn't solve anything or make anyone want to change their ways. I think a lot of kids brag about their time spent in detention more than they're ashamed of it. Money talks, and it really speaks to teenagers. What's more important to a teen than their cash? I was never rude or disrespectful enough to curse at a teacher or any adult, but you can bet that I'd learn to watch my mouth if I got fined for it! I'd have been totally pissed and would probably try to pull the "freedom of speech" thing at my school (which seems to be a favorite, and probably the only amendment any of them even know because it's so frequently spouted), but I doubt I'd have taken it to a court or anything.

I'm sounding like an old lady now, but I think kids these days are getting away with so much because someone at some point began using the argument of "freedom of speech" etc. way too liberally. Kids (and adults, too) think they're free to say anything they please no matter how rude and disrespectful it is. It has never been okay to curse out loud in public or to an elder, so why is it now covered under "freedom of speech?" People are always looking for a a way to sue or argue something, IMO, instead of just taking responsibility for their own actions and those of their children.

If my children were in this school, I'd be glad if they got caught and fined for cussing at a teacher. That shows complete lack of respect, and I'd be completely appalled by their behavior. However, if they were fined for, say, arguing with a teacher about something trivial, then I'd say the First Amendment could come into play and I'd support them. Court - no.

NCshopper · Hermes

It says in the article:

"It is issued for a breach of peace -- we only use it when the student is disrupting to the staff member using really abusive language," Morales-Taylor said.

This isn't being used to punish kids that are just randomly swearing in their conversations. It's being used to maintain the peace in cases where the students are acting out against their teachers. Students can't physically abuse their teachers, so why should they be allowed to verbally abuse them? A detention isn't enough of a threat to them, so maybe fines will work.

The thing about this though, is that I think it will probably punish the parents more than anything. I just know there are so many spoiled brat high schoolers (the kind that would curse at a teacher) that also think, "Who cares if I swear at her? Daddy will pay for it."

lynnie · Chanel

halleybird wrote:

blubirde wrote:
Being a lawyer, but not an expert on first amendment issues, I'd say if a student took the case to court, the fine wouldn't hold up. That's my instinct. I could say all the profanity I wanted on a street corner and can't be fined because of it. (Police would probably try and arrest me but it they wouldn't have any viable charges.) If I was drunk, I guess I could get a public intoxication citation but that's it. However, I think if a student was disrupting a classroom with profanity, as in halleybird's example, I have no doubt a court would uphold an reasonable punishment, just as if they'd disrupted by throwing a desk or a book or something. Fines? Probably not. Detention? Probably okay. I bet those schools have an army of lawyers that told them it was okay to do that though.

I agree with this. But it would never get to court. Trust me, school districts are all about buckling to parents' demands and settling out of court.
You know, as much as I would love the little hellions at my school to be fined, the school is overlooking the real issue, which is that some teenagers have a hard time distinguishing appropriate and inappropriate behavior in a professional setting. I think they'd have better results if they worked on that problem. IMO the swearing is a symptom, not a disease.

amen to that.

i disagree with implementation of fines for so many reasons. one, i agree with halleybird and ncshopper- either the parents are going to have to pay or this is kind of avoiding the issue. also, would you be fined for saying, "oh i'm so fucking tired?" i think thats also kind of unfair. i think a warning would be appropriate here.

in the case of calling a teacher a "f*cking b*tch", i dont think they should be fined either. they should be disciplined in other ways, but money isn't a fair punishment imho- some kids (or their parents) will pay their way out, and some don't have the money, and will either avoid paying or get the money in a bad/dangerous way. not everybody has great parents that are going to make them pay from their babysitting money or make them do extra chores around the house to make up for it.

-- Edited by lynnie at 11:07, 2005-12-19

laken1 · Hermes

wow - fines seem like a small price to pay. I was SUSPENDED for a day for saying "shit" in the 8th grade - but that was back in the day too! Of course I also went to catholic school, but still. Man this is gonna make me sound old, but kids nowadays.......

Seriously, what makes them think it's ok to say "f**king bitch" to a teacher. i would have been PETRIFIED to go home to whatever was waiting for me if I had done that.

tina242 · Kate Spade

NCshopper wrote:

It says in the article: "It is issued for a breach of peace -- we only use it when the student is disrupting to the staff member using really abusive language," Morales-Taylor said. This isn't being used to punish kids that are just randomly swearing in their conversations. It's being used to maintain the peace in cases where the students are acting out against their teachers. Students can't physically abuse their teachers, so why should they be allowed to verbally abuse them? A detention isn't enough of a threat to them, so maybe fines will work. The thing about this though, is that I think it will probably punish the parents more than anything. I just know there are so many spoiled brat high schoolers (the kind that would curse at a teacher) that also think, "Who cares if I swear at her? Daddy will pay for it."

I agree with this most. Not to be a shit disturber, but I never understood why "foul language" was such a big deal. It's a word. When it is used as verbal abuse, that's another story. Like Lynnie said, saying "I'm fucking tired" isn't such a big deal.

To quote what Halleybird said:

You know, as much as I would love the little hellions at my school to be fined, the school is overlooking the real issue, which is that some teenagers have a hard time distinguishing appropriate and inappropriate behavior in a professional setting. I think they'd have better results if they worked on that problem.

I agree - but how do you go about doing that? The parents didn't do their job, so more power to the school if they can figure that one out .

halleybird · Hermes

tina242 wrote:

To quote what Halleybird said: You know, as much as I would love the little hellions at my school to be fined, the school is overlooking the real issue, which is that some teenagers have a hard time distinguishing appropriate and inappropriate behavior in a professional setting. I think they'd have better results if they worked on that problem. I agree - but how do you go about doing that? The parents didn't do their job, so more power to the school if they can figure that one out .

What needs to happen is that schools need to stop buckling to parents who sue or complain when their child receives a punishment. Then, at least the child will receive discipline somewhere. But that won't happen.

And I do agree with you, tina -- I don't understand why people are threatened by language. But the fact is, many people are, and kids do need to understand that. I also want to point out that, while cursing is probably tolerable at some jobs, there are also some professions where it could put someone's job in jeopardy. When I worked in newsrooms, no one blinked at throwing around the f word, but if I did it in any of the PR offices I worked in, I would have definitely been warned.

And finally, it's just a matter of etiquette, and time/place, just like a dress code. Most jobs probably wouldn't fire you for wearing a tube top and a miniskirt to the office, but it wouldn't reflect well on you, either.

blink · Coach

years ago I worked in a contract position in telecom and although many people dressed out of style and gaudy, a 21 yr old girl was fired because she wore too short skirts and no panty hose, etc. Apparently she had been warned, but she either just didn't get it, or didn't shop for a new wardrobe in time to avoid being fired.

And foul language should be frowned upon in schools, however it is used. It is almost always frowned upon in business (and I cuss at home or with friends in private conversations at work, but I would NOT be pleased to hear it at work out loud), the only place I have heard language like that for all to hear was in less professional environments, in competitive positions, such as outside sales where it doesn't always matter how you behave at the office as long as you behave in front of the client.

I disagree with using money as punishment for profanity, I believe that detentions and maybe a "third strike" rule of suspension should be enough.

Deuce · Dooney & Bourke

I think this is a great Idea. I agree with many points made here. I do not think that this is ment to be used for a kid cussing in conversation, but more when they are being verbally abusive. There is no circumstance where a child should feel justified in cussing at a teacher (that should be done behind their backs). Detension is a joke and probably not working at this school, so they are trying something else. And It is true money is a language teenagers speak, so why not hit them where it hurts. As for it being more of a punishment for parents and families that cannot afford it, all the more reason to get them to parent their children and let them know, if for no other reason, that cursing at the teacher is not okay because they will not be able to afford it. Parents sometimes choose not to teach their kids what is right or wrong, maybe this will provide some incentive. I think it is a great Idea, somehow we need to get respect back into our children. No one complains when kids are given money for doing someting good, or getting good grades. What is wrong for doing the opposite for the bad behaviors.