STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

amazingfruit · Nine West

RE: This is...unbelievably awful.

scarlett · Marc Jacobs

ejc423 wrote:

Amazingfruit, you may be right that 99.99% of the people in China don't know about the fur trade. But they should. They should know when their economy depends on barbaric means. They should know that animals are being abused and people are being oppressed. And people who are being demoralized should know that they don't have to live that way.

I am entering in this discussion a bit late, but have found it very thought provoking while reading the posts just now.

I agree that this kind of treatment of animals is horrible and sickening. I don't buy fur, although I do own a coat with a fur collar that was a gift from my mother (full disclosure).

However, I do think that at this point it's expecting too much from individuals at the lower end of the income level to be as concerned with an animal's rights as they are with their own welfare. That's not to say that they don't or wouldn't care -- but if they had the financial comforts we have, and the luxuries we enjoy in our country (and that people enjoy in someplace like England), then they would be more inclined to get upset. At this point they are going to care more about their own well-being, and I have to say I can't fault someone for that. China does have a lot of growing economic power, but from what I understand, they still have a long way to go before more of their people enjoy more prosperity.

wetbandit42 · Marc Jacobs

This is so sad. I'm glad Paul McCartney is using his fame to bring light to the issue, since a lot of people don't know about it or refuse to acknowledge that it happens. I love my dog, I can't imagine skinning dogs and cats alive. :( I understand that maybe China doesn't value cats and dogs as pets, but throwing any animal into boiling water is very unethical and cruel.

halleybird · Hermes

I just wanted to say that I understand that a boycott of China could seem offensive to some people, but I re-read Mia's posts and I don't think she intended to say that China is immoral; I took her statements to mean that the fur trade is immoral and the government is immoral for supporting it, or at least looking the other way.

That said, I think it's unlikely that many people in China understand that this is happening. From what I understand of the country, access to unbiased information is limited at best, especially in the poorer rural areas. So I don't think that the Chinese people in general are supporting or ignoring the issue -- they probably don't know that it is happening, and if they did, they probably couldn't do much about it.

Honestly, do I think a boycott of China will really affect the Chinese government and force them to recognize these issues? Probably not. Nor do I think it will have much effect on the Chinese people, rural and otherwise. I think Mia knows that, too. But I think that sometimes, when we are so completely disgusted and morally offended by something, we feel the need to do something, anything so that we don't feel so powerless.

Maddie · Coach

Like Halleybird, I wanted to come to Mia's defense for a moment. There's a big difference between deciding not to support an economy that is fueled by inhumane practices (in relation to the treatment of animals or humans) while it's quite another to proclaim an entire people morally bankrupt. I believe Mia has done the former, not the latter.

amazingfruit · Nine West

Maddie wrote:

Like Halleybird, I wanted to come to Mia's defense for a moment. There's a big difference between deciding not to support an economy that is fueled by inhumane practices (in relation to the treatment of animals or humans) while it's quite another to proclaim an entire people morally bankrupt. I believe Mia has done the former, not the latter.

I'm sorry Maddie, but I disagree with your assessment. Mia did in fact do the latter, and not the former. As Rocky pointed out earlier, Mia’s assertion “That isn't the way a civilized nation behaves and I want *nothing* to do with a society capable of things like that” is an example of that. As Halleybird said, this may not have been Mia's intention, but that is the way it came across, atleast to me, and apparently a few others.

joy0302 · Kate Spade

I agree, I have heard some horrible stories from China about the treatment of animals, especially from groups like the World Wildlife Fund who do investigations in China, among other places. I think unfortunately, though, this cruelty goes on in our own country as well as in foreign places. I was watching the other day on one of those news shows, there are too many to keep them straight. They did an undercover investigation on these idiots that lived in Biloxi, Mississippi. They were charging people money to go to a fight in town, between pitbulls and little pigs. I can not tell you the sound that those poor pigs made when those dogs were attacking them, but everytime I think about it I feel sick. They should have put the people who organized that in the cage with the pitbulls and see if they thought that was still a fun form of entertainment. The sad thing is that there are terrible people everywhere that want to feel more powerful by being cruel to animals.

Halleybird-didn't you post about those anti-fur signs a few weeks ago? I saw some at the mall with skinned animals. Would someone please tell me why all of that is necessary? No one needs to see that. I don't wear fur, love my animals like they are my children and haven't ate beef in over 2 years just because I saw a little calf being taken to the slaughterhouse. I don't need to see those signs when trying to go Christmas shoppping!!

Maddie · Coach

amazingfruit wrote:

Maddie wrote:
Like Halleybird, I wanted to come to Mia's defense for a moment. There's a big difference between deciding not to support an economy that is fueled by inhumane practices (in relation to the treatment of animals or humans) while it's quite another to proclaim an entire people morally bankrupt. I believe Mia has done the former, not the latter.

I'm sorry Maddie, but I disagree with your assessment. Mia did in fact do the latter, and not the former. As Rocky pointed out earlier, Mia’s assertion “That isn't the way a civilized nation behaves and I want *nothing* to do with a society capable of things like that” is an example of that. As Halleybird said, this may not have been Mia's intention, but that is the way it came across, atleast to me, and apparently a few others.

I totally see your point, but I think that in the context of "knowing" Mia, I took it differently.

Mia · Kate Spade

Well, thanks for the support Maddie and Halleybird and others, I know you guys have your hearts in the right places.

I want to say, though, that I do not retract my statement about a “civilized society”. As I previously mentioned, I have read a lot/educated myself on this issue (the treatment of animals in China) and I think it’s safe to say that the Chinese culture views animals differently than we in the west do (generally). I have no idea if this or that person in China knows specifically what is happening in terms of that video/news story I linked to, I am sure there are people living in China who have no idea it’s happening. However, the treatment of those cats and dogs in China is immoral, imo. Therefore, I do not support China economically or plan to travel there or watch the Olympics when they happen etc.

If you want to obliquely accuse me of racism, I can’t stop you from doing so. You might want to hold the accusations of “ignorance” until you check what racism actually means, though. Racism is basically believing someone to be bad/displaying negative characteristic X, due to their race. I believe the people doing those things to animals are acting immorally because of the acts, not because of the race/nationality of the people committing them. There is a difference and I refuse to be bullied into retracting my carefully examined beliefs by people who feel throwing unfair and inaccurate accusations around is OK. Canada has a seal hunt, and we are boycotted by many European (and possibly American, although I’m not sure) organizations for this reason. We are boycotted by many Europeans for our logging practices. That is their right. I might theoretically disagree with them (not saying I do or don't) but they have a right to take action based on their beliefs and although I can argue with them, I do not have the right to accuse them of racism, or any other 'ism'. I have never heard the “racism” label being applied to those people. Yes, I have white skin. Yes, I live in a western country and have enough to eat and a roof over my head. No, I do not forfeit my right to call out barbarism and cruelty because of these things.

-- Edited by Mia at 03:57, 2005-12-06

-- Edited by Mia at 03:59, 2005-12-06

kisa · Dooney & Bourke

Although boycotting Chinese goods would probably be at least somewhat beneficial to the economic situation of American businesses, (eliminating or partially eliminating the "China Price" from the domestic American market) it is not practical at all, and would have very little or no bearing on the issue of permissible Chinese cruelty to animals. Even then, it's kind of hypocritical to boycott fur products from China because you think they are using cats and dogs. After all, a mink or a fox is a lot like a cat, and a beaver or a raccoon is sort of like a dog.

I hate to say it, but the "West" and our treatment of animals just happens to have a seedy underbelly, instead of an open book of animal cruelty. I don't know if you have ever heard of a drug called Premarin, Mia, which is comprised of the urine of pregnant mares has been in production in the USA and Canada for over fifty years now. The drug is very widely prescribed, so there needs to be many many pregnant mares to supply enough urine. Because of this, millions of horses have spent their lives in small cost effective "stalls," hooked up to tubing to collect their urine, and being repeatedly impregnated. They are deprived of water to concentrate the estrogen levels in their urine, and they are unable to sleep in a comfortable position, forced to always stand. When the horses are no longer fruitful enough to be cost effective they are sent to slaughter. There have been terrifying cases of cruelty to horses in transit from auctionhouses and farms to the slaughterhouse. They are neither fed nor watered, and the second level of trailers have collapsed, crushing all of the horses on the bottom level. Recent legislation has been passed to ban the use of double decker trailers, but there is no evidence that it is actively enforced. Upon arrival at the slaughterhouse the horses are corralled into various shute-like systems using tazers, which lead them to steel stalls with steel grate floors. Here the horses are shot through the skull with a bolt which is meant to render them motionless. Here the floor drops out and the horse is dropped onto a belt that will take them to an area to be strung up. Due to meat production standards the horses have to be bled to death from the throat. The horses are winched up by their hind hooves, their throats are slit, and they are bled to death. This is true for all variety of horse, not just premarin mares. Sick and disabled horses from auctionhouses, and feeble old school horses that are past their prime. Even a companion animal much like a cat or dog has a decent chance of being sent to slaughter.
Although I am probably getting a reputation for only ever badmouthing the states here I will have an epiphany of Canada-hating. Brandon, Manitoba, Canada, is the Premarin capital of the world. There is a horse slaughterhouse in Owen Sound, Ontario. There are no regulations regarding the treatment of PMU mares. Horse slaughter and premarin mares are just part of a huge North American animal cruelty problem. Maybe we should leave China alone until we have our affairs in order at home.

-- Edited by kisa at 04:26, 2005-12-06

amazingfruit · Nine West

Mia wrote:

If you want to obliquely accuse me of racism, I can’t stop you from doing so. You might want to hold the accusations of “ignorance” until you check what racism actually means, though.

Mia, I never said that you feel the way you feel because these are Chinese people. I would have been equally bothered if you had said the same thing about Americans for XYZ reasons. I am taking issue with the fact that you readily clump all Chinese people together, and attack the whole for the actions of a few. I don't take issue with the anger you have towards the Chinese fur traders or animal abusers. You detest them. Fine. I can see why. I only pointed out the difference in value of animals so that people could get the whole picture, so that some could understand (not to be confused with excuse) some of the treatment of animals there.

--I want to say, though, that I do not retract my statement about a “civilized society”. As I previously mentioned, I have read a lot/educated myself on this issue (the treatment of animals in China) and I think it’s safe to say that the Chinese culture views animals differently than we in the west do (generally). I have no idea if this or that person in China knows specifically what is happening in terms of that video/news story I linked to, I am sure there are people living in China who have no idea it’s happening. However, the treatment of those cats and dogs in China is immoral, imo.....I believe the people doing those things to animals are acting immorally because of the acts, not because of the race/nationality of the people committing them.--

I agree, the treatment of THOSE cats and dogs in China is probably immoral and offensive to alot of people, and that the people doing those things are responsible. The point is not all cats and dogs in China are treated inhumanely, and not all people in China are cruel to animals. So, yes, I happen to think it unfair and ignorant to make a blanket statement that China is an uncivilized society because of the actions of a very small portion of the population. The majority of people in China value animals and do not treat them cruely.

I can appreciate that you have read and educated yourself on the plight of animals in China, but I would like to point out that often the only cases that are reported or shown to the public are the ones that are cruel. This happens to be the nature of media, because that is what entices the public attention, and it should not be taken as an accurate depiction of the whole picture.

-- Edited by amazingfruit at 15:23, 2005-12-06

halleybird · Hermes

joy0302 wrote:

Halleybird-didn't you post about those anti-fur signs a few weeks ago? I saw some at the mall with skinned animals. Would someone please tell me why all of that is necessary? No one needs to see that. I don't wear fur, love my animals like they are my children and haven't ate beef in over 2 years just because I saw a little calf being taken to the slaughterhouse. I don't need to see those signs when trying to go Christmas shoppping!!

Yes. They pressed the photos up against my car windows at a stoplight. It was deeply disturbing -- I was so angry, for the exact same reasons you are. It made me feel guilty when I have done nothing wrong. The protesters I saw were talking about J.Crew, though -- were those the ones you saw? PETA should have stopped boycotting J.Crew now, because they've promised not to sell fur anymore.

beachgirl · Kenneth Cole

I wanted to add my two cents...I think it's very easy to sit back and judge other people & other cultures, but I feel also very ignorant. To really know a lot about a particular issue, I feel you would have to do more than read and "research" it...I mean, unless you're there and you really see what's going on, who's doing it, who's affected and how other people are reacting, how can you sit back from a *comfy* chair & pass judgment?

Honestly, living in the States, I realize that I have it so good. I don't and cannot grasp the living conditions of others, and not because I don't want to, but because I'll never really know what it's like to be in their shoes, to live their lives, so I'm not going to pass judgment, and I'm certainly not going to condemn an entire society.

And I have to say one more thing...I am an animal lover, I adore my animals, have quite a few, and always will. Right now we are paying thousands of dollars on chemo/vet visits/medicine/supplements/etc. on our chocolate lab, who has cancer. But, I also value human life & I feel like with so many homeless people, kids, families, displaced victims, families struggling with poverty, some without even running water in our own country, where's the outrage for that? Shouldn't they rank higher than animals in other countries? Is a cat in China more important than a child here? Maybe China should condemn us & refuse to do business out of outrage at our actions.

Like someone else said, let's fix our own problems, before pointing the finger at others. We have plenty to work on.

joy0302 · Kate Spade

Halleybird-

The ones that I saw were just outside of the main entrance to the mall, but they were not protesting against any one store. They don't have a J. Crew at the mall where I saw them though. So disgusting!!!!

bliss · Dooney & Bourke

beachgirl wrote:

I am an animal lover, I adore my animals, have quite a few, and always will. Right now we are paying thousands of dollars on chemo/vet visits/medicine/supplements/etc. on our chocolate lab, who has cancer. But, I also value human life & I feel like with so many homeless people, kids, families, displaced victims, families struggling with poverty, some without even running water in our own country, where's the outrage for that? Shouldn't they rank higher than animals in other countries? Is a cat in China more important than a child here? Maybe China should condemn us & refuse to do business out of outrage at our actions. Like someone else said, let's fix our own problems, before pointing the finger at others. We have plenty to work on.

I just wanted to chime in and say that I agree with you 1000%

I have a dog, I am a dog lover and everything but at a point I must draw a line. In America there are millions of children who go to bed hungry at night and will never have enough of any of the things they need. At a point you have to think of the old adage "charity begins at home". By at home I don't mean America, I mean the entire human race.

tina242 · Kate Spade

"I personally won't buy fur because I just don't like the idea. I can understand the personal decision of choosing to not buy fur from China, but demonizing the whole country and debasing their civilization based on what a fraction a percent of the population does is unfair." (amazingfruit)

Very well put amazingfruit. Yes it's sick what is being done to animals, and reading those posts made me sick. No, I don't wear fur. I'm not a vegetarian, but have considered it. Are you a vegetarian, Mia?

To make a sweeping statement about an entire culture because of what you read in the media is simply ridiculous. To say a statement about a culture and end it with "generally" strikes me as ignorant.

The U.S. isn't exactly made up of a bunch of angels. I know of plenty of rednecks out there who treat animals in a comparable way to the ways that article describes, and yet we certainly don't boycott ourselves. My God, pick a country, and I can point out some downfalls. I'm not going to boycott the whole world. If you want to voice that that type of treatment against animals is wrong, good, but to think that boycotting a nation will solve it? No.

To quote Mia: "As I previously mentioned, I have read a lot/educated myself on this issue (the treatment of animals in China) and I think it’s safe to say that the Chinese culture views animals differently than we in the west do (generally)."

Just read rocky's post - she's Chinese, has many relatives in China, and visits often - listen to her rather than what you read in the media. I read rocky's posts and wanted to cry:

"This is an especially sensitive topic for me since I am Chinese and I still have many relatives in China, and I do visit the country often. I really don't appreciate being called barbaric and immoral and having that label placed on my relatives. Most of the people in the country have no idea that this is going on, and government policy is not in the control of the people. I do not agree with the government's allowance of barbaric treatment of animals, and I can understand that you want to boycott the exports to make a stand. But the boycott of non fur related products will hurt the economy and many innocent people as a result."

Mia wrote:

I doubt my refusal to buy goods from China/visit China/watch the Olympics will make a practical difference. It's simply about ethics and emotions to me. That isn't the way a civilized nation behaves and I want *nothing* to do with a society capable of things like that. China also has a problem treating many of it's humans humanely. There are a lot of reasons to boycott China, from the ethical to the economic - I posted what I posted because I feel like it needs publicity and that that publicity might hopefully, eventually, have some effect.

Rocky: "...comments like the ones above seem to be directed to Chinese people as a whole and I find it extremely unfair and upsetting to the point of tears."