STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

sfcaligirl · Dooney & Bourke

RE: I don't know how to deal...

blubirde · Chanel

theotherjess wrote:

JoceyBaby23 wrote: I am a supporter of Bush, not because I am a die-hard republican but I do believe that he is our President and we, the people, should stand behind his decisions even if we don't completely agree with him all the time. Thank you for sharing this. Not to diss (for lack of a better word) blubirde or anyone else on here because I respect your opinions, but I think this is an attitude that is lacking in our country.

Don't worry - I'm not offended. I like seeing everyone's opinions. No one here is mean or catty so I think it's a good discussion.

That said, I could not disagree more with the idea that we stand behind the President's decisions because he's the president. No way. That's the point of free speech isn't it? Like Nylabelle said, I think for myself and I will not be told to shut up if I have a differing opinion than everyone else. And if I think something our country, MY country is doing is wrong, I sure as hell am going to speak up about it. It's not only my right as an American but it's my duty. (This is not directed at anyone who has posted - I'm just passionate about this issue.)

And hey, I repeat, whether Bush should or should not be at the Gulf Coast is neither here nor there. (The logistical nightmare argument is a good one.) That said, I think it borders on disrespectful that Bush would be playing around on a guitar (gift or no) on a naval base while tens of thousands of people are fighting for their lives in our modern day Atlantis. It's like Nero fiddling right along while Rome burned. IMO.

dc · Dooney & Bourke

blubirde.. heh heh ..we said the same thing about Nero.

sfcaligirl... LOL... No political ambitions here. Let's just say there are skeletons in my closet the conservatives would have a field day with!

-- Edited by dc at 19:24, 2005-08-31

blubirde · Chanel

dc wrote:

Shades of Nero playing the fiddle while Rome burned.

Ah! I think we wrote this at the same time!!

It's not because I am a "liberal" - it's because I am unable not to think & question. I simply feel we have too much at stake in today's world to blindly trust.

Here, here. I hate the liberal/conservative labels. Or more accurately, I hate the negative connotations that comes with both.

Well said, dc. I could not agree more with everything you said.

blubirde · Chanel

dc wrote:

blubirde.. heh heh ..we said the same thing about Nero.

Quit! You copyin' me??

NCshopper · Hermes

blubirde wrote:

I hate the liberal/conservative labels. Or more accurately, I hate the negative connotations that comes with both.

I LOATHE these labels. They are so pointless and only breed animosity between the parties. I feel like our society has become so label-oriented that it's assumed that if you're a moderate that you're wishy-washy and can't make up your mind. The world is not black and white: there are shades of gray in every issue and overly simplistic labels do nothing to help us in the long run.

*hijack/rant over*

With regards to the New Orleans situation, I'll state it again: this was a bad PR move for Bush to be playing the guitar. I know he had some sort of press/news conference tonight (I missed it though) but I really think he should have spent yesterday and the day before doing whatever it takes to reassure the American public in these uncertain times.

Also, slightly off topic, did you know he recently broke the record for Presidential vacation time? The previous record took Ronald Regan a full 8 years to set. President Bush broke that record in 5 years. Yikes!

halleybird · Hermes

I just want to know this...

where can I get a job with 5 weeks paid vacation?

sephorablue · Marc Jacobs

halleybird... you can move to germany!!

sephorablue · Marc Jacobs

DC, your post was incredibly eloquent and I 100% agree with you.

Supporting the US president in all his actions and decisions purely because he is the US president makes about as much sense as telling your best friend who is cheating on her husband, "sounds good, sweetie, whatever works for you." I totally disagree with that mindset.

jen · Kate Spade

DC hit the nail on the head. I could never support something or someone I didn't agree with 100% just for the sake of supporting. I only support people I truly believe in-I don't care if you are the President or some bum on the street, my opinions are my own and that doesn't make me any less American, in fact I think it makes me more patriotic because free ideas is what this country was founded on. I must make this note: this post is not in response or directed to anyone-it's just my ideas on the subject.

kenzie · Chanel

sephorablue wrote:

halleybird... you can move to germany!!

Or you could work for my company. Apparently, that's what we get, too!

nunzi182 · Kate Spade

Would anyone where flip flops in front of him now? LOL

JoceyBaby23 · Gucci

I do feel attacked by many of you today and I think that people here have taken what I said and dissected it soo much that it has now been taken out of context. Therefore, me being stubborn, I have to try again to express myself so none of you think that I want to live in a dictatorship!

1. I never said that debate or questioning authority was un-healthy or un-American. I also do not think that we should suppress our true feelings. I do feel that "bashing" a Leader is not a good image to project to others. If people were as vocal as they are about their feelings for their Boss, as they are about their feelings for the President.. I doubt many people would have a job left. As someone mentioned, Bush is not Hitler.. nor is he God.. and I think he deserves some respect, at least a little..

2. Clearly the President handles issues that will involve his hands getting dirty.. symbolically. He makes decisions everyday that may be right or wrong.. affecting peoples lives, positively or negatively.. This stuff is deep and I don't think he takes his job as President lightly. If he didn't care about making a difference, he wouldnt have run for President. Just like if you didn't care about making a different, you probably wouldnt vote.

3. If anyone watched Bush speak yesterday, he DID express sorrow for what has happened and DID try to express the ways he plans to help.

4. I feel it is good to question and speak up if you don't agree with something.. But I think it is a little (for lack of a better word) nit-picky to find a fault in EVERYTHING you see around you.

5. I think we all can agree that we want America to be the best country it can possibly be. However, the "best" is subjective. For example, a strict Catholic may feel that the USA would be perfect if Abortion (everywhere and every kind) was illegal. I, being VERY pro-choice, would be absolutely miserable in this kind of world.

Since, Americans have so many different views on "how things should be".. no President or Leader of any Group could possible please everyone. We could have 10 of us in a room and just like we do on the styleboards disagree a million times about the best style or shoe, or deeper issues like politics and religion. The President is human, just like all of us. I think Americans need to choose their battles when disagreeing with authority. Some of you may feel very strongly about violence and war.. Well.. Do something about it and try to win one "battle" at a time. Being outraged about EVERY move someone makes has got to time-consuming and will probably not get you anywhere.

6. And for some people to say.. "I highly doubt the President cares about what is happening in LA" is NOT a fair statement. Do you know this for sure? Did you talk to him? This is an assumption that was made based on a photograph. And although, you are entitled to your opinions.. we all know what ASSUMPTIONS make us! I will make a relation here that some may think is far fetched...

Let's just say.. one of my family members passed away on Tuesday. and on Wednesday I was photographed laughing with a friend on the street. Does this mean that I am not grieving or that I do not care about my family member? Someone may see that pic and say that I am completely heartless and I did not love my family member. Is that fair to say? Did you ask me if I was sad? Did you ask me if I was grieving? No.. and judgements should not be made on assumptions.. judgements should be made on facts.

And lastly, a question for those of you with strong beliefs on these issues, Can I ask what you are doing to make a difference? I believe that all of you are intelligent women with strong views and you would NOT sit back doing nothing when presented with something you didnt like. So, I am just curious where and how you express yourself and your discontent with some things that the President is doing.

Again, I do not want to offend and I apologize in advance if I did. I just wanted to clarify a few of my beliefs and am hoping NOT to change anyone's mind.. just explain how I see it in my head. I feel defeated after the way people have read more into my statements than were meant.

dc · Dooney & Bourke

Morning Jocey,

I still assert that my response wasn't even to you, but to the general statements I pulled from your post - not even in relation to this situation necessarily, but just because I hear people saying those things a lot (esp. with regard to Cindy Sheehan et al) and felt like saying something.

That said, your post is well-taken and states your point effectively and intelligently. But please don't feel attacked - I don't think anyone here felt attacked by your post, it just spurred debate (and nothing wrong with spurring debate - you should be proud!)

I do stand by the fact that it was in poor taste - after this had already happened - for the Pres. to hop on a plane going to (I think) California where this photo op occurred with the guitar. He should have had other priorities. That said, I *was* glad to hear some excerpts from his recent TV and radio appearance yesterday and today (still took too long, but whatever), and I heard the emotion in his voice. But what I tried to convey in my post is that the country needs leadership at a time like this, and for several days he provided none, and this is a PATTERN of his when something major happens. The photo was just symbolic of that - I don't think it was the photo itself people responded to, but frustration that W was MIA once again.

I do not think anyone is being "nitpicky," though it may seem that way to someone on the other side of the argument. And I always hate it when people say, "Well, if you're complaining, what are you actually DOING about it?" Dissent IS doing something, as I tried to point out. Staying silent, in fact, means doing nothing. I am not going to rattle off the various organizations to which I belong, contribute, or volunteer. I don't need to justify my constitutionally granted right to free speech and dissent to you or to anyone - the right still exists, whether I sit on my ass and complain (I don't) or support the causes which I speak for.

And yes, if I had criticism of my boss, I'd speak up to someone. It's not "bashing." It's speaking up when a leader in not being effective in the way one would hope. I wouldn't stand for that in my job either, but then again, I am an assertive person when I feel wronged.

I still think a leader needs to earn our respect like anyone else. You have to remember - a lot of us are still not convinced he even won the first time he ran for President, so there are lots of feelings there, not good ones. Add to that policies (war, economic, etc) that we don't agree with. I don't think anyone is being outraged about every move he makes simply for the sake of being outraged - there are people like that, and they suck, the same way that people who would blindly support suck (this is clearly not you, as evidenced by your post) - those are the two ends of the spectrum. So I hope people will give those of us who are thoughtful and concerned in our criticism a little more credit. I am continually appalled that I just happen to disagree with basically every move this man makes - like I said before, I don't WANt to complain. I want to be happy! But he is my political & religious opposite in every way - it can't be helped. How can I support that? He may care about making some sort of difference (although I feel he's more of a chosen figurehead for a movement rather than someone acting out of altruism), but it sure as hell is not a difference I want made.

In the culture in which I live here in D.C., I am waist deep in this, and EVERYONE I know holds strong beliefs on these subjects. It may be different from other parts of the country - in fact, I know it to be. We are too close to it not to think about it pretty much constantly.

Anyway, I respect you & your answer, but still disagree. And, like you, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.

~ dc

kenzie · Chanel

dc wrote:

Morning Jocey, I still assert that my response wasn't even to you, but to the general statements I pulled from your post - not even in relation to this situation necessarily, but just because I hear people saying those things a lot (esp. with regard to Cindy Sheehan et al) and felt like saying something. That said, your post is well-taken and states your point effectively and intelligently. But please don't feel attacked - I don't think anyone here felt attacked by your post, it just spurred debate (and nothing wrong with spurring debate - you should be proud!) I do stand by the fact that it was in poor taste - after this had already happened - for the Pres. to hop on a plane going to (I think) California where this photo op occurred with the guitar. He should have had other priorities. That said, I *was* glad to hear some excerpts from his recent TV and radio appearance yesterday and today (still took too long, but whatever), and I heard the emotion in his voice. But what I tried to convey in my post is that the country needs leadership at a time like this, and for several days he provided none, and this is a PATTERN of his when something major happens. The photo was just symbolic of that - I don't think it was the photo itself people responded to, but frustration that W was MIA once again. I do not think anyone is being "nitpicky," though it may seem that way to someone on the other side of the argument. And I always hate it when people say, "Well, if you're complaining, what are you actually DOING about it?" Dissent IS doing something, as I tried to point out. Staying silent, in fact, means doing nothing. I am not going to rattle off the various organizations to which I belong, contribute, or volunteer. I don't need to justify my constitutionally granted right to free speech and dissent to you or to anyone - the right still exists, whether I sit on my ass and complain (I don't) or support the causes which I speak for. And yes, if I had criticism of my boss, I'd speak up to someone. It's not "bashing." It's speaking up when a leader in not being effective in the way one would hope. I wouldn't stand for that in my job either, but then again, I am an assertive person when I feel wronged. I still think a leader needs to earn our respect like anyone else. You have to remember - a lot of us are still not convinced he even won the first time he ran for President, so there are lots of feelings there, not good ones. Add to that policies (war, economic, etc) that we don't agree with. I don't think anyone is being outraged about every move he makes simply for the sake of being outraged - there are people like that, and they suck, the same way that people who would blindly support suck (this is clearly not you, as evidenced by your post) - those are the two ends of the spectrum. So I hope people will give those of us who are thoughtful and concerned in our criticism a little more credit. I am continually appalled that I just happen to disagree with basically every move this man makes - like I said before, I don't WANt to complain. I want to be happy! But he is my political & religious opposite in every way - it can't be helped. How can I support that? He may care about making some sort of difference (although I feel he's more of a chosen figurehead for a movement rather than someone acting out of altruism), but it sure as hell is not a difference I want made. In the culture in which I live here in D.C., I am waist deep in this, and EVERYONE I know holds strong beliefs on these subjects. It may be different from other parts of the country - in fact, I know it to be. We are too close to it not to think about it pretty much constantly. Anyway, I respect you & your answer, but still disagree. And, like you, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. ~ dc

Well said, yet again, dc. I couldn't agree with you more.

JoceyBaby23 · Gucci

Thank you DC for your response. I do feel better after reading it. We will agree to disagree on this and I am very glad to hear that you belong to a lot of organizations that can make a difference. As I'm sure you can agree, there is nothing worse than people who enjoy complaining for the sake of complaining.. No matter what anyone's beliefs I hope everyone would be like you and express your opinions intelligently and try to make a difference.

My father was a politician for many years so I like you I know how it feels to be emersed in this environment.

I do enjoy this board and enjoy a good discussion. So thanks to you all for enabling that.

laken1 · Hermes

I LOVE THIS BOARD. I love that we can disagree intelligently & maybe educate or spur thoughts / action from people who read it (myself included). You girls rock.

-- Edited by laken1 at 12:00, 2005-09-01

sfcaligirl · Dooney & Bourke

JoceyBaby23 wrote:

6. And for some people to say.. "I highly doubt the President cares about what is happening in LA" is NOT a fair statement. Do you know this for sure? Did you talk to him? This is an assumption that was made based on a photograph. And although, you are entitled to your opinions.. we all know what ASSUMPTIONS make us! I will make a relation here that some may think is far fetched...

i believe this statement may have been partially in reference to one of my previous posts, as the wording is very similar. however, i said, "i highly doubt that the president is not concerned about the devastation in LA." of course he's concerned- i may disagree with him on a lot of things, but i don't think he's so callous as to not care about this disaster.

sorry, just wanted to make sure that my previous post was not misunderstood.

sfcaligirl · Dooney & Bourke

dc wrote:

And I always hate it when people say, "Well, if you're complaining, what are you actually DOING about it?" Dissent IS doing something, as I tried to point out. Staying silent, in fact, means doing nothing. I am not going to rattle off the various organizations to which I belong, contribute, or volunteer. I don't need to justify my constitutionally granted right to free speech and dissent to you or to anyone - the right still exists, whether I sit on my ass and complain (I don't) or support the causes which I speak for.

again, i completely agree with everything you said, dc- especially this point. well said!

NCshopper · Hermes

laken1 wrote:

I LOVE THIS BOARD. I love that we can disagree intelligently & maybe educate or spur thoughts / action from people who read it (myself included). You girls rock. -- Edited by laken1 at 12:00, 2005-09-01

Agreed! There aren't many venues for people to speak their mind about political issues without being attacked. I think its awesome that there are so many women on this forum who can intelligently articulate their feelings about these issues WITHOUT resorting to name-calling and labelling.

I really hope you don't feel like you were attacked personally, Jocey. I don't think anyone here had the intention of doing that (I can only speak for myself, but I'm assuming that no one had bad intentions here). Your post brought up some excellent points and sparked some great discussion.