STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

I can help! (I am so bored right now).

The Bennett sisters are Jane, Elizabeth (Eliza and Lizzy), Mary, Kitty, Lydia (I think that is age order)

The Lucases are: Charlotte and Maria (Charlotte is oldest)

Btw, in Austen, oldest sisters are "Miss ---" with the last name, and then the younger sisters are "Miss ---" with the first name. (I think)

Shall we start from the beginning?

"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife."

1. So what do we think Austen means by this statement?

Here are my thoughts: I think she is taking a tongue-in-cheek stab at the society she lives in. Notice how she specifically doesn't address the needs/wants of a woman? Because, technically, a woman in possession of a good fortune probably wouldn't need a husband.

"Oh!  Single, my dear, to be sure!  A single man of large fortune; four or five thousand a year.  What a fine thing for our girls!"

"How so?  How can it affect them?"

"My dear Mr. Bennet," replied his wife, "how can you be so tiresome!  You must know that I am thinking of his marrying one of them."

"Is that his design in settling here?"

2. What voice does Mr. Bennet represent? Does he represent sanity? Logic? Is he a baffoon? Is he strictly there to accentuate Mrs. Bennet's ridiculousness?

Here are my thoughts: I think Mr. Bennet represents Jane Austen herself, at least in this scene. She is playing at Voltaire, saying the simplest things so simply that they seem ridiculous. I believe Mr. Bennet is a voice of reason and sanity in the insane world of matchmaking and marrying.

CHAPTER 2

"What can be the meaning of that emphatic exclamation?" cried he.  "Do you consider the forms of introduction, and the stress that is laid on them, as nonsense?  I cannot quite agree with you there.  What say you, Mary?  For you are a young lady of deep reflection, I know, and read great books and make extracts."

Mary wished to say something sensible, but knew not how.

3. What is the point of making Mary "a young lady of deep reflection" who "read[s] great books and make[s] extracts"?

My thoughts: I think Austen is taking aim at the ridiculous as much as the intelligensia. Mary is repeatedly portrayed as a learned person, definitely the "thinker" of the family, but at the same time, she is constantly portrayed as completely ridiculous and useless as the more stupid members of her family. The fact that Mary (or anyone else in the Austen's times) claims to read deep books and be reflective and "think" means very little. The act of talking about thinking requires much less knowledge and thoughfulness than actual thinking. The pompous and ridiculous are the low and the high.

CHAPTER 3

To be fond of dancing was a certain step towards falling in love; and very lively hopes of Mr. Bingley's heart were entertained.

3. What role does dancing and balls play in the lives of the Bennet sisters and the society Austen is encapturing?

My thoughts: As women weren't allowed to socialize like they are today, and impropriety was a dirty word, the only feasible way for women and men to come in contact (without the direct oversight of their parents) was at a ball or dance. At the very least it was a way to meet each other and try to charm the opposite sex. I believe a ball played a whole host of roles in Austen's world, besides just a boy/girl date opportunity.

MR. DARCY!!!!

"You are dancing with the only handsome girl in the room," said Mr. Darcy, looking at the eldest Miss Bennet.

"Oh! She is the most beautiful creature I ever beheld!  But there is one of her sisters sitting down just behind you, who is very pretty, and I dare say very agreeable.  Do let me ask my partner to introduce you."

"Which do you mean?" and turning round he looked for a moment at Elizabeth, till catching her eye, he withdrew his own and coldly said: "She is tolerable, but not handsome enough to tempt me; I am in no humour at present to give consequence to young ladies who are slighted by other men.  You had better return to your partner and enjoy her smiles, for you are wasting your time with me."

4. Why is Mr. Darcy such a prick?

My thoughts: I'm not sure he is a prick. I mean, he is, but I'm not sure that's his intention. Jane Austen goes out of her way to point out that Darcy is an intelligent man, more so than Bingley. Maybe he's grown so cynical and tired of the game he's forced to play (especially as a man who "must be in want of a wife") that he assumes everyone is the same. Kind of like how girls get down on guys and think every single one of them is only in it for sex? That kind of rationale. And as you read further along and learn more of Mr. Darcy's story, you learn he has reason to be suspicious and cynical. But, he is a dick. And he hurt her feelings, and that's not cool at all. At this point he'd have to seriously redeem himself for insulting the main character in the book who is already established as a heroine.

5. Discuss why Lizzie is described as "very pretty" while her sister is described as "beautiful."

My thoughts: Lizzie can't be everything! Plus I think it's necessary for her to not be the beautiful one to lend credence to her positions in the book. If she were in a position to have offers thrown at her feet all the time, her opinions and stances in the book might not have as much weight behind them. Besides Jane is as beautiful inside as outside.

"But I can assure you," she added, "that Lizzy does not lose much by not suiting his fancy; for he is a most disagreeable, horrid man, not at all worth pleasing.  So high and so conceited that there was no enduring him!  He walked here, and he walked there, fancying himself so very great!  Not handsome enough to dance with!  I wish you had been there, my dear, to have given him one of your set-downs.  I quite detest the man."

6. Is Mr. Darcy supposed to be the exact opposite of Mrs. Bennet?

My thoughts: Yes. And no. Where Mr. Darcy appears to be full of pride, Mrs. Bennet appears to have none. I say appears because Mrs. Bennet thinks she has a lot of pride (and the things she are of are things no one else in their right minds would be proud of) and I doubt Mr. Darcy seems himself as prideful. Just smart and above it all perhaps. I believe they are a contrast of one another, especially as the book goes on and you see their parallel experiences.

CHAPTER 4

The Bingley sisters - bitches and whores?

They were rather handsome, had been educated in one of the first private seminaries in town, had a fortune of twenty thousand pounds, were in the habit of spending more than they ought, and of associating with people of rank, and were therefore in every respect entitled to think well of themselves, and meanly of others.  They were of a respectable family in the north of England; a circumstance more deeply impressed on their memories than that their brother's fortune and their own had been acquired by trade.

7. What is Austen trying to say with these characters?

My thoughts: They're bitches. Plain and simple. They're those people who think they deserve everything they get and look down on people who don't have what they have. I don't know if there's anything beyond pure, unadulterated evil in these characters. Maybe they're the personification of Mr. Bingley's prejudice? Their roles will become more discussion worthy as the book goes along.

8. What is the significance of their family fortune having been acquired by trade? (As opposed to landed money, old money, if you will.)

And yet, they act superior but they're not any more superior than the Lucas family. Weird. I know the trade significance is important in Austen's society and it has all these economic and social imports but to be honest, I just can't get into those discussions very much. I never have been able to.

CHAPTER 5

Sir William Lucas had been formerly in trade in Meryton, where he had made a tolerable fortune, and risen to the honour of knighthood by an address to the king during his mayoralty.  The  istinction had perhaps been felt too strongly.  It had given him a disgust to his business, and to his residence in a small market town; and, in quitting them both, he had removed with his family to a house about a mile from Meryton, denominated from that period Lucas Lodge, where he could think with pleasure of his own importance, and, unshackled by business, occupy himself solely in being civil to all the world.

9. Nice little tidbits Austen throws in there, no? Also made his fortune from trade and is now SIR Lucas. Any thoughts on the significance of this statement/description?

I think he will be more discussion worthy as the book goes on also. It's just humerous how he felt he needed to stop working and do nothing once he became knighted. And yet his daughter is 27 and still not married? I bet if they'd stayed in Meryton where she had the chance to interact more, she'd be married by now.

Regarding Mr. Darcy's pride....

"His pride," said Miss Lucas, "does not offend me so much as pride often does, because there is an excuse for it.  One cannot wonder that so very fine a young man, with family, fortune, everything in his favour, should think highly of himself.  If I may so express it, he has a right to be proud."

"That is very true," replied Elizabeth, "and I could easily forgive his pride, if he had not mortified mine."

"Pride," observed Mary, who piqued herself upon the solidity of her reflections, "is a very common failing, I believe.  By all that I have ever read, I am convinced that it is very common indeed; that human nature is particularly prone to it, and that there are very few of us who do not cherish a feeling of self-complacency on the score of some quality or other, real or imaginary.  Vanity and pride are different things, though the words are often used synonymously.  A person may be proud without being vain.  Pride relates more to our opinion of ourselves, vanity to what we would have others think of us."

10. Is Charlotte (Miss Lucas, Lizzie's 27 year-old, a fact not lost on the reader, friend) stupid or naive or innocent or all of the above?

More to discuss once we find out more about her I think.

11. Ah Mary. Shut up already! Again, is Austen pointing out that people that read their lives away are not closer to knowing the true nature of man than those who live it with their heads stuck in the sand?

See Lisa's point below. Apparently she's not stupid and useless after all.

Okay, those are all I can think of for now. Enjoy and I'm excited to see everyone's thoughts!

*Edited to add extra thoughts

whew, bluebirde!! thank you for giving us all something to think about.

Okay, I will give my thoughts on a few, I only have a few minutes:

1. I have always thought Austen was being facetious in her opening line. Remember, just because something is "universally acknowledged" doesn't make it true!! 

2.Mr Bennett is my favorite character in P+P, probably the most realistic of the lot. (I love Mr Bingley as well, because he finds everyone so agreeable. I have been accused of thinking everyone is nice. But I don't). I think he is comic relief, as well as the perfect foil for Mrs B.

Now,I will skip ahead to the Darcy and The Bingley Bitches.

Darcy is a prick cause he has a bug up his butt about something.....we just don't know what...

The fact that Bingley fortune was amassed through trade makes it less noble(is that the proper word?) That there was actual work involved....this is a dirty word in most Austen novels. Therefore, I think the Bingley Broads feel it necessary to act as superior as possible.

These responses are not as thoughtful as I would like, but I am on vacation and my brain is slightly liquid................... 

Did you notice how in many ways things really haven't changed much.?? Charlotte made up a story in order to satisfy her curiousity about Bingley. No one speaks directly, they hint and demure and hedge about(this is one thing that drives me  crazy in real life and is therefore intensified for me when I am reading this novel). I had several others but my book is not handy. I will add more later.

Lisa wrote:

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blubirde wrote:  Regarding Mr. Darcy's pride.... "His pride," said Miss Lucas, "does not offend me so much as pride often does, because there is an excuse for it.  One cannot wonder that so very fine a young man, with family, fortune, everything in his favour, should think highly of himself.  If I may so express it, he has a right to be proud.""That is very true," replied Elizabeth, "and I could easily forgive his pride, if he had not mortified mine." "Pride," observed Mary, who piqued herself upon the solidity of her reflections, "is a very common failing, I believe.  By all that I have ever read, I am convinced that it is very common indeed; that human nature is particularly prone to it, and that there are very few of us who do not cherish a feeling of self-complacency on the score of some quality or other, real or imaginary.  Vanity and pride are different things, though the words are often used synonymously.  A person may be proud without being vain.  Pride relates more to our opinion of ourselves, vanity to what we would have others think of us." Not to hijack, Blubirde, but I also wonder whether Austen isn't using Mary to point out the difference between Darcy's "pride" and Lizzy's "vanity." When Lizzy says he hurt her pride, she actually means that he hurt her vanity (by Mary's definition). And though she pointedly doesn't "mind" Darcy's snubs now and later, she is constantly aware of his opinion of her, throughout the book. To me, this whole section foreshadows the "realizations" Lizzy will make later in the novel about Mr. Darcy and his pride (in terms of it being allowable) and about her own reactions to it.

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You're not hijacking at all! That's what this thread is about. That's an interesting point about Mary. I always ignore almost everything she says because she bores me to tears (and plus I always think I have her figured out) but I should know better when it comes to an Austen novel.

I've always had issues with the title of the book: Pride and Prejudice. I can never figure out which is which. Is Lizzie the proud one or the prejudiced one? Which is Mr. Darcy? Are they both both?

But you're right. Mr. Darcy insulted Lizzie's vanity. But if Lizzie weren't possessed of a certain amount of pride in the first place, she wouldn't have had any vanity to insult. Am I making sense here? So maybe to point out that insulting someone's vanity necessarily implies they have a certain amount of pride to begin with? I'm not sure where I'm going with this...

I have to tell y'all - this is the most intellectually stimulated I've felt in 2 years at my job. Thanks so much for starting this!

blubirde wrote:

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 That's an interesting point about Mary. I always ignore almost everything she says because she bores me to tears (and plus I always think I have her figured out) but I should know better when it comes to an Austen novel. I've always had issues with the title of the book: Pride and Prejudice. I can never figure out which is which. Is Lizzie the proud one or the prejudiced one? Which is Mr. Darcy? Are they both both? But you're right. Mr. Darcy insulted Lizzie's vanity. But if Lizzie weren't possessed of a certain amount of pride in the first place, she wouldn't have had any vanity to insult. Am I making sense here? So maybe to point out that insulting someone's vanity necessarily implies they have a certain amount of pride to begin with?

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I definitely agree that the two are too linked - the distinction between pride and vanity, as mary sees it, might even be totally false but I think it might still be a hint.

I am with you on the title as well. I think, though, that there is a stronger case for Austen intending Mr. Darcy to represent pride, and Lizzy prejudice, because I don't think she has enough pride in general to be called prideful. I think she has just a "normal" amount, but she is certainly ready to jump to conclusions, take offense and hold grudges (exemplified by her behavior toward Mr. Collins, Darcy's aunt, etc.) - I think this is the influence of her father coming out and could be called "prejudice."

A note about Mary: I started paying close, close attention to the "minor" characters after an early college professor pointed out that Mr. Woodhouse's judgments of people are infallable. (Remember, he was never a big fan of Mr. Frank Churchill - "always leaving windows ajar" or something like that. - And countless other examples) I love finding bits like this. 

blubirde wrote:

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 "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife." 1. So what do we think Austen means by this statement? Here are my thoughts: I think she is taking a tongue-in-cheek stab at the society she lives in. Notice how she specifically doesn't address the needs/wants of a woman? Because, technically, a woman in possession of a good fortune probably wouldn't need a husband.

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First, I want to say that your comment about the Bingley sisters ("bitches and whores") made me laugh, and I had a shitty day, so thank you for that.

Second, I like your statement above, but I'd like to add to it. I do agree with your assessment that this statement is tongue-in-cheek. However, I think a woman who was in possession of a good fortune would probably need a husband -- despite English laws which allowed women to own property, I think it would be very difficult to deal with business affairs as a single woman in that time period. However, Austen's statement doesn't refer to need at all. It says a man would be in want of a wife. Because a wealthy bachelor would be perfectly able to manage his affairs for his entire life. A wife, however, is an acquisition, a desire, and a symbol of one's place in the world. Mrs. Bennet's scheming to marry off her daughters underscores this; the marriage is initiated for the girls by their parents' desire to provide, not because of their own desires. The implication is that a woman might need a husband, but she may not necessarily want one. Does that make sense to anyone?

This paradox between wants and needs, and how they apply to men and women, is one of the most interesting themes in Austen's books, IMO.

*edited to finish sentence

laken1 wrote:

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halleybird wrote:However, Austen's statement doesn't refer to need at all. It says a man would be in want of a wife. Because a wealthy bachelor would be perfectly able to manage his affairs for his entire life. A wife, however, is an acquisition, a desire, and a symbol of one's place in the world. Mrs. Bennet's scheming to marry off her daughters underscores this; the marriage is initiated for the girls by their parents' desire to provide, not because of their own desires. The implication is that a woman might need a husband, but she may not necessarily want one. Does that make sense to anyone?
This paradox between wants and needs, and how they apply to men and women, is one of the most interesting themes in Austen's books, IMO.
*edited to finish sentence -- Edited by halleybird at 21:15, 2005-08-12


This makes perfect sense in that it clears up things - the whole "need vs want a husband" thing, but it goes against everything I (and I must assume every other female of this generation) believes so it still makes my brain hurt. But yes, thanks for clearing up the thinking at the time - I keep trying to apply these rules to current day situations, not realize that even if these people are "forward thinking", they still aren't as progressive as our views of women as equals in today's world.

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