STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

Kari · Dooney & Bourke

Made an ass of myself....need advice

Cricket · Gucci

Well, I say give him a sincere face-to-face apology, then leave him alone. He will probably be mad at you for awhile and your friendship might not ever be the same. If I were in his shoes, I probably would exchange pleasantries w/ you from now on, but leave I would leave it at that. You seem to be very sincerly sorry and if you express that to him, that's really all you can do.

Kincali · Dooney & Bourke

I don't know your background Kari, but this is what I would think if someone was telling me this story.

Well, this one guy and I have had every single class together so we are together alot, and we eat lunch with this group everyday. He is really awesome, funny, and fun to hang out with -when he isn't with his wife. When she is around he is quiet, reserved and has to "babysit" her because she has absolutely no personality.

This comes across as, he is awesome when he is flirting with me, then his drag of a wife has to show up. He focuses his attention on his wife, and ignores me. I can't really stand her, and I'm projecting my feelings onto her and her personality.

If he even leaves to go to the bathroon, she stares toward the bathroom until he returns. She never says a word the whole evening if we go out.

She seems like she is aware of the vibe between you two. I probably would not want to read the thoughts going through her head. I would be thankful she just keeps quiet.

Well, the rest of the group and I always talk about them and how weird it is, and we don't really see how they fit together, blah blah blah.

Again if she is sensing the hostility from the group she is going to get even more defensive & clam up.

WELL, last weekend I was an idiot and got crazy, stupid drunk...like freshman year in college drunk. I do not remember anything past 11 or 12 oclock that night. Then monday, my friend, the other girl of the group informed me that in my drukeness I went off on the guy about how much his wife sucks, and nobody likes her, and he is an idiot for being with someone so dull. That is putting it nicely, throw a few explitives in there and some horrible name calling and that is more accurately how I described it.

I would ask myself why I have put such an investment into this guy's wife & his personal relationships.

As soon as I found out what I did, I called and apologized to him on the phone. He spoke to me very briefly, told me that he won't hold a grudge forever, that he is still my friend, but that I make it hard for him. He even kind of joked and said that he gets to be mad at me for a while and I have to buy lunch alot for him this summer. That was Sunday.Monday morning we had class together. He didn't even look at me, let alone say hi or smile or anything else. My husband and most of my friends say to leave him alone and let him have time to get over it and let him approach me. I thought that since I was the one who did the horrible thing, perhaps it is up to me to approach him and give him a sincere, face-to-face apology.

Well if there was a reciprocal flirtation from him you blew it out of hiding. For most people flirting is just that, anything else will make him scurry away.

I would just let things it go, be friendly but brief. Again, I do not know you, if you are married, or anything. This is just what I would pick up from reading this letter in an advice column etc.

-- Edited by fairlight at 13:06, 2005-05-24

Kari · Dooney & Bourke

Fairlight,

I appreciate your honest assessment of the situation. Perhaps he and I have flirted with each other when we first met each other, but our friendship has moved past anything like that. To be rather honest, he isn't even that attractive to me. He's kind of a nerd. We are in law school together. I don't know if you know much about law school, but it is pretty intense. We created this study group 2 years ago and so we have spent up to 10 hours a day at school in class or studying together. You develop very strong bonds with these people. We know more about their personal lives and struggles than anybody should. It is a strange dynamic, but we are truly just friends. I am a happily married woman, my husband is with us when we hang out outside of school. My husband has become friends with this entire group. We've even gone on vacation with them all.

We all knew him before their wedding. They got married during our first year. As late as the week before the wedding he was asking some of us how he could get out of getting married and that he feels like it is too late to cancel. So, perhaps he worked through those issues and is deeply in love with her and happily married, but we all wonder if he wishes he wouldn't have married her.

This guy is a very flirtatious one. He flirst with just about every girl he is around. He causes his wife to be insecure, but when it is a small group of friends hanging out at a backyard bbq, you'd think she could let her guard down a bit. Of all the friends, I am the one that has tried to get to know her and make her feel more confortable. I always speak to her and ask about things. The other people of the group have given up on her completely and don't even speak to her much anymore. It isn't just the girls that have a problem with her, the other guys in the group have voiced this concern as well. Everyone says she has the personality of a door knob.

My main issue at this point is that I have deeply hurt an individual that I have grown to be very good friends with. Not only have I hurt him, but I have damaged the entire group. The other group members tell me it is not as big of a deal as I think it is. They say that he knew that we all had issues with her and although it was hurtful of me to say it so bluntly, that they think he will get over it and we can all remain friends. I do not really see it this way.

I have never done anything so horrible to anyone before. I do not know what the proper ettiquette is here. So, I just wondered it I am supposed to approach him or give him time and wait to hear from him, if he chooses to speak to me again.

-- Edited by Kari at 13:26, 2005-05-24

RyanJ · Coach

I think you should give him space. Maybe tell him that you are sorry and if he decides he wants to talk to you again then you will be there and leave it at that.

Unfourtnaley he has to take her side over you, so he probably feels like he is betraying his wife if he hangs out w/ you. I would let him know you are open to being friends w/ him, but don't push it on him.

blink · Coach

quote:
Originally posted by: fairlight
I would ask myself why I have put such an investment into this guy's wife & his personal relationships.

Fairlight, that line was so clear and the rest of your post fell right along with my line of thinking.

Kari, although I think what you did was awfully mean, I understand your reasons and I know what it is like to blab too much when heavily drinking. To avoid losing any more dignity, my advice is right along with your friends and your husband, to leave him and his wife alone. It sounds to me like your friendship with him needed to chill a bit anyway, it was already out of hand if you and your friends were speaking very ill of the wife behind his back. He may be your friend, but his relationship is not your business, so let it be. I do believe a true friend stabs in the front, however, sometimes too much "honesty" is actually just plain unkindness.

beachgirl · Kenneth Cole

I agree with Fairlight and Lorelei...when I was reading your post, my thoughts were exactly the same. And then I read your response as well and it just seemed really defensive. It sounds like more than just innocent flirting to me, and his wife has obviously caught on to that. I mean, I would just try putting yourself in her shoes. I think it's mean that everyone is talking about her behind her back. I think it's definitely time to just take a step back. Also, does the rest of your group bring it up when you guys talk about her, or are they just agreeing with you? I mean, maybe you're influencing their opinions without even realizing it because you like this guy?

Hedvig · Coach

quote:
Originally posted by: Kari
"It isn't just the girls that have a problem with her, the other guys in the group have voiced this concern as well. Everyone says she has the personality of a door knob."

I have to say I really feel sorry for the guy's wife. It must be horrible for her to have to hang out with a group of "friends" all the time who so obviously hate and despise her. No wonder she doesn't feel like chitchatting and bonding with you!

Frankly, it sounds like you just feel sorry about saying all those things out loud and hurting the guy but not at all sorry about your attitude towards his wife. I guess all you can do is to wait and see if he still wants to be friends, but I agree with RyanJ, don't push it on him.

ETA: Having said that, we do all mess up and, in the end, this certainly isn't one of those huge life-ruining mess-ups!

I hope it all works out!

-- Edited by Hedvig at 02:16, 2005-05-25

Andrea Julia · Coach

Fairlight, your response was so insightful and brutally honest.

Kari, If I were you, I would be hoping he didn't tell his wife what you said. Married people don't usually keep secrets from each other. If I tell any of my married friends something, I know I am telling their husband/wife as well. If he told her, I don't think you have much of a chance at all of bringing your friendship back to where it was.

It is going to take him a while to get over this if he does ever completely get over it. His wife is his family and she (and his kids if he has any) should be the most important person in his life. I'm not married, but I wouldn't speak to someone who badmouthed my husband and I would definitely expect my husband to turn his back on those who spoke ill of me. It would be one thing if someone was just mad at me for a specific incident, but quite another if they just insulted me in general and said my husband should not be with me.

The one thing you have going for yourself is that you were drunk. This means there is a small chance that he can dismiss it as something stupid you said when drunk. Of course, he can also feel that you really feel this way and have just held back when more sober (which is really the case).

You already apologized so you can't just keep doing that-at least not right away. Give him a few weeks and if he doesn't come to you, send him an e-card or something saying you miss his friendship and you are so sorry. If you are given the opportunity to hang out with him and his wife again, make more of an effort to get to know her. It seems that she feels self-conscious and uncomfortable around your group. Maybe she feels that you act inappropriately with her husband? She probably just goes because she knows her husband enjoys hanging out with you all.

-- Edited by Andrea Julia at 15:02, 2005-05-24

mikacat · Coach

kari-

you made a mistake--don't beat yourself up over it.

Law school is intense and very stressful.

Give him some space---the summer should help. Aren't you going away to internships soon?

Maybe it will be better in the fall.

I hope so ---

esquiress · Marc Jacobs

I agree with the others. I've also been to law school, been that close to my friends in law school (and their spouses) and been that drunk. I don't think you need to have gone through any of that to understand your situation. It worries me that you wrote "I don't know if you know much about law school, but it is pretty intense." in response to fairlight's post, it reads like you're looking for ways to degrade her opinion.

What worries me more is that you are still insulting your friend's wife's personality--"she has the personality of a door knob"--this reads like you're trying to shift the blame from your behavior to her. She's not the one in the wrong here, so just the fact that you continue to insult her makes it sound like you're not really willing to take responsibility for your actions. Until you do, any apology you make will sound insincere to the listener, imo.

There's not much you can do at this point. Everyone makes mistakes, and everyone has to pay for them. All you can do is take this as an opportunity to learn from it.

-- Edited by esquiress at 19:19, 2005-05-24

dc · Dooney & Bourke

Hi Kari -

While I was sort of shocked at this at first, having "known" you for years and corresponded with you outside of the forum (didn't think you had it in you!), I also think people are being way too harsh on you.

It is quite possible that the wife does, indeed, suck (especially if everyone thinks so). Certainly sounds like a drag to me. While it was definitely an uncool scene and you were right to call him and apologize, you shouldn't have to apologize for thinking she sucks, to the hubs or to anyone here. Why should you feel sorry for thinking she's lame? In your drunkenness, you'd just had enough of her and her dullness bringing down the group dynamic. Selfish? Sure. Out of control, yup. But it was honest.

I don't feel bad for the wife. If she's not into the group she can stay home. Doesn't she have her own friends? Why does she have to be such a drag? I hate women who are just lame appendages attached to their men. I never get why men go for these chicks.

I think you've apologized on the phone, now you just need to lay low. Just smile humbly when you see him and give him his space. It'll blow over. He probably already sensed the vibe and you said it out loud.

It's a bummer to a group dynamic when one of the guys goes out and gets himself a dud. I have a very very dear friend who married a woman who wouldn't even allow me and our other female friend to come to the wedding. She sucked. Nobody liked her and she was negative to all of us. Nobody was shy about letting him know she sucked. They're divorced now, thank god. We still give him a hard time (poor guy - but he's a good sport). With my guy friends, it does bum me out when they get themselves a woman who's lame, bitchy, or a bummer. Has nothing to do with my being interested in them - I'd feel the same if it were a woman friend with a lame husband. I love my guy friends like brothers, never in "that" way. Why is there this assumption that you must be into him in order for his lame wife to piss you off? I'd just wonder why a great guy who I care about sold himself short, and I'd be annoyed that she was bringing down our group's vibe. I can see this whole scene happening with a girl friend (if a female friend married a lame guy and you got drunk and told her so) and everyone would sympathize. Not excusing your outburst - it would be out of line in either case - but just trying to put this into perspective.

In college, law school, or whatever close & high pressure environment you're in, these things CAN be greatly magnified, so I do think that's a valid point and not overly defensive. So I can see how this happened. With the dude, just lay low - you're human, you care about your group of friends and have a bit of self-interest, like we all do, about how she was affecting your group and your happy-go-lucky good time... and you had waaaaaaaay too much to drink. Ka-boom. It happens.

You're not a bad person, ok?

((hugs))

-- Edited by dc at 21:18, 2005-05-24

ejc423 · Coach

Kari, I just want to give you my support cause I agree with dc. We all mess up, think we suck for a while, and then get on with life. Just get out of the thinking you suck stage ASAP, ok?

RyanJ · Coach

I think people are being a too harsh too.

How many of us have not talked about people behind their back? If this friend would have been a girl and Kari went off about the husband then no one would have thought Kari liked the her friend.

I had a guy friend who was also dating and then married the most boring person in the world. I can't get along w/ just about anybody. I would go out of my way to be nice to the girl- engage her in conversation. I would ask her about her day and I found out she was very interested in birds- so I would talk to her about that. My dad is a huge bird nerd, so he has all these feeders and special feeds. I would get nothing out of. She would answer w/ one word or shake her head. And yes all of my friends would talk about her.

I had no feelings for my friend AT ALL. We were just really great friends. I had known him for a long time and I wanted him to be happy. I just didn't understand how a really great guy could be happy w/ the most boring person in the world.

Kari, if you would have not said anything I bet someone eventually would have- maybe that would have had a little more tact

.

-- Edited by RyanJ at 10:17, 2005-05-25

manhattanmonkey · Kenneth Cole

Gotta ditto what dc said. I've never been in your shoes, but I hope things work out and this guy doesn't hold it against you.

Give it some time and see how it goes....

bumblebee · Dooney & Bourke

i think people are being harsh as well. although fairlight's post was insightful and interesting, i don't think it necessarily means that you are going after this woman's husband just because you dislike her. there's no way to know that just from what you posted, and it sounds like it's not true anyway.

anyway, just wanted to echo what others are saying--the most important thing is to make a sincere and humble apology and then back away. don't keep picking at the scab (gross analogy, i know)--let him have some space and time--you can't know how he is feeling about what you said. in time, he will come back around if he is ready and willing to remain friends, but all you can do by pushing it is make a bad situation worse.

Kari · Dooney & Bourke

Well, I am very glad that you all were so honest with me. And while I am still absolutely confindent that my friendship with this guy is completely harmless and innocent, you have opened my eyes a little more to the fact that perhaps perceptions can seem like reality to some people and I can be more sensitive to the fact that most people do not trust a male/female relationship can be just friendly and nothing more. Some people probably think there is more to it, but the fact is there isn't. I have the personal philosophy that as long as I am not doing anything wrong, I'm not going to stop even if others perceive it differently. Perhaps I should rethink that a bit.

I have had lots of time to disect this situation and try to find the underlying issues and I think DC hit it the most. I see this guy joke about his wife as his starter wife, or first wife. I see him act like a completely different person with and without her around. I've come to be close friends with him and can sense that he isn't completely happy and I want more for him. I've looked her in the face and said "Hi" to her before and had her just stare back and me without responding, smiling, or anything. That is just completely rude.

I do not feel sorry for my opinions of her, I am only sorry that I said them in such a hurtful way. He already knew that she and I didn't really have anything in common and he knew that we all struggle getting to know her and get along with her. It wasn't really what I was saying that hurt him, but the way I said it.

Just an update...he and I have talked it all through and even been able to joke about it. Things are already getting back to normal and believe it or not the others have said that they think things will be even better because I shattered the tension and got it all out there for everyone.

atlgirl · Gucci

Good for you, Kari, for taking it on the chin and analyzing what others have said. I think your most recent post here shows a lot of maturity and wisdom, and it sounds like your friendship with this man *will* heal. And at least you've learned a valuable lesson about drinking and loose lips LOL, and you all will survive it.

manhattanmonkey · Kenneth Cole

Glad to hear things worked out

blubirde · Chanel

I know I'm getting to this late but something you said struck a chord with me.

quote:
Originally posted by: Kari
"\I have the personal philosophy that as long as I am not doing anything wrong, I'm not going to stop even if others perceive it differently. Perhaps I should rethink that a bit."

kari

People judge. That's what they/we do. There's nothing you can do to make everyone happy. As long as you are okay with you and your actions/behaviors, then that's all that matters. I don't think you should have to rethink that philosophy, especially because some people might not understand that girls and guys can be friends only. That's their problem, not yours. I cannot stress enough how important it is to not judge everything you do through others' eyes (some rationale self-evaluation is good, of course). It's wonderful to have a forum like this and see different points of view, but your situation is ultimately yours and no one knows it like you.

I'm glad you and your friend are repairing your friendship. Everyone messes up and we have to deal with the consequences. It sucks but we're human and me muck things up every now and again. We can't all have simple and drama free lives, can we?

As for the guy being a different person when the wife is around... I hate when people are like that. It makes me so mad. The wife sounds rude and I can almost guarantee I wouldn't like her or want her around either. But if it were my friend, I'd confront him and ask him why he's so different when she's around. That would be my tactic. I don't know if I'd do it right now though - things are still on shaky ground, but it's a thought.

Good luck girl! Oh, and having been through law school myself I have this to say: What? You got drunk and made an ass of yourself while you were in lawschool? Craziness!! (I don't know what it is about law school - could be any situation i guess but I've done law school so I'll talk about that - but I've never been drunker or stupider in my entire life. On a regular basis.

)