STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

blubirde · Chanel

Calling all feminists - a rant

lsubatgirl · Gucci

quote:
Originally posted by: blubirde
" Here's my question: Am I wrong? Should I just chill out and let these kind of comments roll off my back? Because I have to say, I would have a really hard time doing that. I'm starting to feel I live in a bizarro world where it's suddenly okay to insult and demean women and I'm somehow the "bitch" for mentioning the obvious. Any thoughts?"

You are not wrong. I completely feel you on all above said items. I am tired of the whiter than white guys acting like stupid idiots. The bf and his roomie call every one dawgs and I always then ask him to speak english please!

I have found myself getting offended by crude rap songs and stuff. I think it demeans women and I don't want to listen to it but I do hear that I am "too old" and need to "let loose". I don't agree and I voice my opinions everytime I have to hear that!

I feel that we do need to open our mouths when something bugs us because if we don't nothing is ever going to change! Yeah it sucks to have people tell us we are the ones who are wrong when we aren't but I'd rather deal with that then having to hear crude jokes and the like.

gruiz · Kenneth Cole

It's funny...I had a roommate a long time ago named Ryan. He insisted that we call him Ry-Dogg, but he was this little whiteboy that shaved his legs "because he was a cyclist". In reality he rode his bike up and down the street maybe twice a week, but he liked to be called a "cyclist". He had the same kind of demeaning manner as your "Nate Dawg" seems to have. It would royally piss me off the way he spoke about women, but I realized that it gave him immense satisfaction to see me all riled up, like the way he thought a "typical woman" would overreact. So, I learned to ignore his comments because I knew he WANTED me to get angry. And I refrained from callaing him Ry-Dogg in favor of Ry-Bread. Needless to say, we weren't great friends, but merely tolerated each other.

If it's over-the-top offensive, I say speak your mind. If it's something like a waiter handing the wine list to the man at the table, I say let it go.

poptart · Coach

Soap box.

It is my belief that nothing will be right with the world until we (meaning women) can speak our minds, respectfully of course, about things that are sexist, even if unintentionally so.

Off soap box.

Thank you for fighting the good fight!

blubirde · Chanel

quote:
Originally posted by: Lisa
"It is my belief that nothing will be right with the world until we (meaning women) can speak our minds, respectfully of course, about things that are sexist, even if unintentionally so."

This is what I think! One of my guy friends told me I should focus on issues such as equal pay for men and women instead of being t'd off about the wine list issue.

But if no one says anything about the wine list being handed automatically to a male, which, in my opinion, is a symptom of the greater problem, how can we even get to the completely huge issues of not making the same amount of money, cent for cent as men? Why should we when in everyday life our every actions and words tell us we're not as important as the men? I'm not trying to make a big deal over a wine list, because it is, above all else, a wine list but it's just an excellent way to illustrate my point.

I'm glad other intelligent women feel similarly because I was seriously starting to get very discouraged.

Drew · Gucci

See I happen to think men and women are different. Not so different that we should be treated like second class citizens or as unequal, but we are different, and sometimes people like to point out those difference in exaggerated or aggravating ways. We do it to men too. We can call men stupid and ape like and lazy all we want. Watch commercials on TV and see how they represent men.

I am not saying you don't have the right to be angry. This is the good 'ol US of A and we can express are selves pretty much any way, at any time. So let yourself be heard if you need to. Go for it. I just wanted to give you a slightly different view point.

As for the waiter handing the wine list to the man, that is just tradition. Any good restaraunt makes that the policy (I waited tables for many years) as it is considered a courtesy.

blubirde · Chanel

quote:
Originally posted by: Drew
"See I happen to think men and women are different. Not so different that we should be treated like second class citizens or as unequal, but we are different, and sometimes people like to point out those difference in exaggerated or aggravating ways. We do it to men too. We can call men stupid and ape like and lazy all we want. Watch commercials on TV and see how they represent men. I am not saying you don't have the right to be angry. This is the good 'ol US of A and we can express are selves pretty much any way, at any time. So let yourself be heard if you need to. Go for it. I just wanted to give you a slightly different view point. As for the waiter handing the wine list to the man, that is just tradition. Any good restaraunt makes that the policy (I waited tables for many years) as it is considered a courtesy. "

I agree men and women are different and are portrayed in different manners, especially by our lovely media. However I feel that respect and courtesy should be extended to both sexes, regardless of our differences.

As for the wine list thing, that's what everyone keeps saying - "it's tradition." But why does that make it okay? I just can't understand why a tradition that says men get to make the decisions, even in something as basic as a choice of wine at dinner, is fine with everyone.

I don't consider myself militant by any means (I leave that to my roommate) but I honestly just don't get it.

Hermes

quote:
Originally posted by: blubirde
" I agree men and women are different and are portrayed in different manners, especially by our lovely media. However I feel that respect and courtesy should be extended to both sexes, regardless of our differences. As for the wine list thing, that's what everyone keeps saying - "it's tradition." But why does that make it okay? I just can't understand why a tradition that says men get to make the decisions, even in something as basic as a choice of wine at dinner, is fine with everyone. I don't consider myself militant by any means (I leave that to my roommate) but I honestly just don't get it. "

I waited tables in fine dining for years (in college) and the rule we were taught was whoever ordered the wine is the one who should be presented with the bottle and the taste. Once the host (person who ordered the wine) deems it acceptable, it is then served to the eldest lady to youngest lady then eldest man to youngest man and the host (wine orderer) is served last.

sorry for the long explanation - but I agree with you - I cannot tell you how many times I have ordered wine to have it presented to the man and I am always insulted. My husband is really good about it and always tell them "she will be tasting since she ordered it." So in proper etiquette land, if you ordered it you should be presented with it.

I also spend a lot of time around large groups of men (my M.B.A. program) and am often times offended by their objectivism of women. I usually jump in and participate sarcastically, or I just say nothing. I am pissed off often by degrading references to women by my classmates.

LoMish · Kate Spade

quote:
Originally posted by: Lisa
"Soap box.
It is my belief that nothing will be right with the world until we (meaning women) can speak our minds, respectfully of course, about things that are sexist, even if unintentionally so.
Off soap box.
Thank you for fighting the good fight! "

AMEN!

valenciana · Dooney & Bourke

quote:
Originally posted by: blubirde
As for the wine list thing, that's what everyone keeps saying - "it's tradition." But why does that make it okay? I just can't understand why a tradition that says men get to make the decisions, even in something as basic as a choice of wine at dinner, is fine with everyone.

See, I have never thought of it as sexist or anything, OR that the man was necessarily going to choose the wine, just that he would handle ordering and any pouring that the waiter might not do, or whatever. As a courtesy, in a host-type role. Just like opening the door for a woman or whatever. Eh, but that's just my opinion...call me Victorian.

And I gotta say, in general, I agree with Drew. Women and men are different. I don't feel inferior to any man simply because I'm not one. But I'm okay with having different social roles. I never expect to get a letter addressed to Mrs. and Mr. Valenciana, but I'm also a stickler for etiquette.

However, I do agree with Detroit, if the woman orders the wine, she should be presented with the bottle. The whole purpose of that is so that the person who orders can be sure it meets their expectations and isn't corked or whatever. They're the ones (presumably) with the knowledge of what they ordered.

What's really funny, is when there are say two couples, and which man the waiter decides who to present the wine list/bottle to. This happened to my fiance and I once when we were out with another couple, the waiter presented the wine (which now that I think of it, was probably ordered by my fiance) to the other guy with us, who knows virtually nothing about wine and barely drinks it. It was kind of awkward...but now I've gone off on a tangent...

Mia · Kate Spade

I don't think Blubirde is saying men and women are the same. Chivalry is not the same thing as sexism. I like having doors opened for me. I don't like being ignored or treated like a boob-display unit because of my gender. I also don't think those feelings are contradictory.

Blubirde, I rarely say anything when stuff like this happens. If a man treats a woman in a sexist way, me, or any other woman, or if he talks about women in a demeaning manner, I lose respect for him, and I stop spending time with him. I have noticed that if someone is a sexist (or a racist or a homophobe etc.) - they usually aren't the most open minded of people. Also, sexists/racists/homophobes are the ones with the problem(s), not the people on the receiving end. I just think to myself, OK, you're clearly a moron who was probably raised in the forest by cavemen, and it's not my responsibility to educate or enlighten you. I will just choose not to hang out with you. Basically I am saying that to me, it's just not worth wasting my time on people like this. Anything you say will be read as "hysterical woman with PMS is ranting" and if someone is a sexist, the definition of that word means they're not really listening to you anyway.

I have the same attitude towards women who tolerate men like that, or who indulge them (and this happens depressingly often). Not my problem, don't want anything to do with it. There are a lot of men out there who aren't pigs, and a lot of women out there who aren't willing to lift up their shirts because some drunk meathead asked them to. Hang out with them!

-- Edited by Mia at 18:22, 2005-04-22

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

I think it's pretty typical to blame the person who points out the problem, in order to avoid being the problem. They're just turning it back on you so they don't have to deal with themselves. "There isn't a problem here, SHE"S just a problem." It can be disorienting, especially if you're clearly right.

Have you ever read "They used to call me Snow White... But I Drifted," by, I believe, Regina White. It's all about the double bind we end up in - oh, and the midol jokes... I highly recommend.

As for whether or not you point it out, I don't know, that's up to you. I don't like to correct people much because, well, they're entitled to be wrong. But I don't see what the problem would be in pointing out how rude a waiter is being. The guys should be grateful they have you for a friend so they won't end up offending without meaning to...