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Post Info TOPIC: Republicans in Hollywood feel bullied


Hermes

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I wanted to share this article because it supports a point I made earlier about how republicans aren't vocal because they paradoxically get attacked by narrow-minded democrats, and how democrats are surprised when republican candidates win because all they hear is support for democrats. 

Anyway, it's not just Hollywood, it's the entire US.  I'm sure I'll be attacked for posting this, but it's a free country and even though I quietly respect the views of others, I expect that I will not receive the same respect in return (just speaking from experience, but I would love to be proven wrong...)

Republicans in Hollywood feel bullied

By Paul Bond, Reuters
Mon Oct 20, 10:35 PM EDT

At a recent event for Republicans in Hollywood, an actress was asked whether she had ever worn her pro-Sarah Palin pin to an audition.


"You must be joking!" she said with a laugh, adding, "But I see Obama stuff all the time."


It's no secret that the entertainment industry is overwhelmingly liberal -- political donations this presidential cycle from the movie, TV and music industries recently were running about 86% Democrat versus 14% Republican.

Being outnumbered is one thing, but being bullied by your liberal co-workers into keeping your opinions to yourself is quite another.

Is that what's going on? Yes, say many of the industry's conservatives. That's why secret organizations with such names as "SpeakEasy" and "The Sunday Night Club" spring up every so often. They're not conservative per se, they just let it be known that attendees of their gatherings may freely discuss politics without being chastised for not toeing the liberal line.


"Are you kidding me? Of course it's true," Kelsey Grammer said when asked whether the town is hostile to conservatives. "I wish Hollywood was a two-party town, but it's not."


Grammer said he knows of a makeup trailer that sported a sign warning Republicans to keep out and of U.S. war veterans who keep their backgrounds a secret from their Hollywood co-workers because they hear them belittle the military.


He even said that, earlier in his career, his job was threatened by a prominent sitcom director who demanded he donate money to Barbara Boxer's U.S. Senate campaign. To keep his job, he gave $10,000 to Boxer and the Democrats.


Nowadays, Grammer is a bankable actor who is unafraid to speak his mind. His advice to less established industry players, though, is to shut up about politics -- "unless you think the way you are supposed to think," and that means liberal.

Unlike Grammer, most Hollywood conservatives appear to be of the closeted variety. "I know every liberal at work and don't know any conservatives because they never speak up," a longtime executive at Warner Bros. said.


However, there are many who are trying to make Hollywood more accommodating to political diversity. Andrew Breitbart is one. At his Breitbart.com (http://www.breitbart.com), he's launching a "Big Hollywood" blog with 40 industry conservatives tasked with -- among other things -- highlighting liberal intolerance.


"There's an undeniably vicious attitude against those who dissent," Breitbart said. "Hollywood is the most predictable place on the planet, not exclusively because of politics but because of narrow-mindedness."


Breitbart maintains that liberals have pushed conservatives too hard in Hollywood and that Americans have noticed. His intent is "to stop the bullying."


One "Big Hollywood" blogger is Andrew Klavan, an accomplished novelist-screenwriter who made a splash with a Wall Street Journal article comparing Batman and the "The Dark Knight" to President Bush and the war on terror.

"It's not easy being different," he said. "The liberals aren't all that liberal. We think they're wrong, but they think we're evil, and they behave like it."


Klavan said a producer, worried that Klavan's political reputation had become common knowledge, asked recently whether he could pitch something Klavan wrote but under an assumed name. Klavan declined.


"I don't want to be the Dalton Trumbo of the right," he said, referring to a notable screenwriter who fell victim to Hollywood's blacklist during the anti-communist hysteria of the 1940s and 1950s.


If you lean right, pitch to those who are sympathetic, or at least tolerant of conservative viewpoints, Klavan said. Mel Gibson, Jerry Bruckheimer and Joel Surnow come to mind.


Klavan also said liberalism seeps into too much Hollywood content nowadays and offers as proof the several anti-Iraq war movies that have been boxoffice bombs.


"These aren't even movies about the war on terror," he said. "They're Vietnam War movies, made by people who sit around at Skybar discussing their pacifist world view."


TV also is too one-sided, he said. "They don't even make fun of Barack Obama," he noted. "How is that possible? The guy's hilarious."


Another "Big Hollywood" blogger is Evan Sayet, whose writing credits include "Win Ben Stein's Money" and "Politically Incorrect With Bill Maher."


Six years ago, while a staff writer for a popular talk show, Sayet said, "I was informed I could not write jokes about ebonics, global warming or any other cause coming from the left."


Nowadays, Sayet heads a conservative comedy troupe called Right to Laugh that performs at the Laugh Factory in West Hollywood and similar clubs nationwide.


Even liberals acknowledge that they have an easier time than conservatives in Hollywood.


"The person who will get snickered at and picked on is the one wearing the McCain-Palin button," actor Eric Roberts said. "But that's OK. It's America. A free country. If you're going to stick your neck out, it's gonna get whacked."

"You just said liberals discriminate more than conservatives," interrupted his wife, Eliza, an actress and casting director.


But the couple maintain that taking any passionate political position -- right or left -- can be difficult. They recalled when Eric was a guest on "The O'Reilly Factor" and, after returning to the set of the TV show he was working on, a producer told him: "We're doing a TV show here. We don't need that kind of politicizing. Don't go public with your views."


He noted, though, that the admonition came from a like-minded liberal whose concern was for maintaining high ratings. Nevertheless, the experience had a cautioning effect on Roberts.


"I pick my battles now. If you support Sarah Palin, I'd walk away," he said. "I wouldn't chastise you, I'd feel sorry for you." (Good, that's what I do with people of differing views than mine all the time.)

Beyond the various "secretive" organizations around town, there is the more obvious Hollywood Congress of Republicans. Headed by actor Mark Vafiades, HCR boasts 160 members who meet about nine times a year to socialize and hear from various right-leaning special guests.

At a recent HCR event, "Saturday Night Live" alumna Victoria Jackson, for example, joked that she's probably the only conservative Christian to have kissed both Sean Penn and Alec Baldwin. Then the comedian-gymnast stood on her head until the room agreed to vote for McCain-Palin, which didn't take long.

Although Obama fundraisers can draw hundreds of moguls, actors, musicians and professional athletes eager to spend time with the senator, McCain's few appearances have been more understated affairs.


The most recent event, in fact, didn't even draw the candidate or his running mate. Instead, spouses Cindy McCain and Todd Palin headlined while comedian Dennis Miller supplied the entertainment.


McCain and Palin don't spend much time in Hollywood -- even to raise money -- because they figure a Republican can't win California. But the party ignores the entertainment capital at its own peril. (Interesting they have a republican governor - I guess star power and charisma is more important than where a candidate stands on the issues.)


"They didn't only write off California, they wrote off our culture," Breitbart said.



-- Edited by D at 11:02, 2008-10-21

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Dooney & Bourke

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I don't think my opinion will be eloquently stated as I am so disgustingly tired but here goes.
I can't say I know much about Hollywood politics as I don't really follow.  From what I have seen/heard I would conclude that this article is correct.  However in my own life I find the situation completely reversed.  I vote for what I feel is best for me and my country, not because I am a Republican or Democrat.  Sometimes what I want and what I think is best aren't the same and I end up doing a lot of soul searching on those issues. 
I have become more liberal in my beliefs as my life has changed, well grown, I like to think.  But - I cannot speak my views at work, because I get patted on the head like I'm the village idiot.  Friends and family don't agree with me, yet they do not seem to have an argument.  I can't count how many times I've been answered with, "I'm so disappointed in you."  Um..ok.  And church, hell no.  I don't think I would be let back in.  EVER.  I can't put enough ever-never's behind that one.
Please forgive if this rambles or makes no sense whatsoever.  Sister threw an all-nighter and I am exhausted.

D - I see no reason for you to be attacked for your posting.  It does not offend.  From what I think I inferred we may have opposing views yet both feel like we cannot express them because of society norms.  I don't think that is what I mean.  Maybe geographically situated norms?  I suck. 

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Hermes

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Official answer - Shame on anyone who makes others feel like they can't express their views without fear, republican, democrat, or otherwise.  I'm sure this affects those working in hollywood more because it seems like there are plenty of people you'd have to be wary of pissing off due to all the contacts and power some people have there.  We should all be able to respect the opinions of others even when they are different than our own, and they should most definitely not affect your ability to get or hold a job (provided you're not constantly arguing your point to others).  However, I have less respect for anyone who can't explain the reasons for their views in a logical fashion no matter the issue, that goes for life in general not just politics.

All that said, my general feeling on republicans feeling bullied is that it just happens to be their turn.  It happened the other way around in the last two elections, and I'm not terribly suprised it's happening this time - as the tides change from one party in power to another, whichever party is being switched from is going to feel like they're getting the short end of the stick.  The only issues I've heard of publicly are those where repubs show up in economically depressed areas with more traditionally democratic demographics and initmidate voters as they wait at the polls.  However, I am under no illusion that it only happens that way, and I'm sure there are many other examples to the contrary.

Like I said above, I don't think attacking someone on their political beliefs is ever justified, and it's really a shame it happens.  I also don't think it's fair to generalize and say that 'democrats' are bullying 'rebublicans' - both of those groups contain a large number of people with varying opinions and neither are without their extremists.  I'd call out someone from my party for using someone's differing political opinions against them just as quickly as I would someone from the opposing party - just because some democrats are bullies doesn't mean they all are, and just because some republicans feel bullied doesn't mean they all do.  In fact I've recently been 'bullied' by a few repubs I know, since we seem to keep a bunch of them as 'friends' wink.gif in our blue state.  They're clearly outnumbered here, but that doesn't seem to stop them.  If their jobs were on the line it might, but again that could be true of either party ....

Thanks for posting the article though D - all you ever hear from hollywood is their support for democratic candidates, so even though it's been difficult for those who don't share those views I think it's important people know that hollywood isn't some mutant place where republicans just magically don't exist.

ETA:  I agree w/ Sibeski, who even if her exhausted state was much more concise than I!

-- Edited by Elle at 12:44, 2008-10-21

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Kate Spade

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D- I find it funny that you feel that Republicans are afraid to voice their opinions for fear of being attacked by "narrow-minded Democrats." I actually find the COMPLETE OPPOSITE to be true. I live in the Bay Area, a liberal haven, and yet I rarely hear anyone voice their political opinion unless they are sure that the person they are speaking to shares the same views. My mother frequently receives RABIDLY neo-conservative, Democrat bashing e-mails from her Republican friends and relatives, but she refuses to even tell them to stop, for fear of hurting their feelings. And rather than retaliate with some Democrat e-mails of her own, she prefers to keep her opinions to herself, rather than forcing them on others. I find this to be the same attitude as all of my Democrat friends with Republican relatives/friends. But the Republicans do not have the same reticence. I have seen e-mails from Republicans calling Obama the anti-Christ (in which they quote INACCURATE and INCORRECT Bible passages), comparing him to a monkey, and many other extremely offensive e-mails.

Anyway, it has been my experience that Republicans have no compunctions about sending offensive e-mails to people they know are of the opposite viewpoint.

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Hermes

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I've had the same experience as you, gingembre1, but I guess I figured it was because I'm in Kentucky (a red state) and most people here assume you're republican unless you say otherwise. I hate it, especially since I'm not particularly vocal about my political beliefs (I try to live by the "no religion or politics in polite company" rule) and feel uncomfortable arguing about it with people, but when I hear some of the stupid stuff that comes out of people's mouths, I feel like it's my responsibility to correct them.

(obviously I'm not saying that everyone who holds beliefs counter to mine is stupid, but I've sadly encountered perhaps more than my fair share of people who support McCain and try to say they don't like Obama because "he's a Muslim" or "his middle name is Hussein" - the first is just incorrect, the second is plain irrelevent. I feel wrong listening to that without responding, even though I'm not comfortable talking about politics with just anyone)

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Marc Jacobs

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ttara123 wrote:

(obviously I'm not saying that everyone who holds beliefs counter to mine is stupid, but I've sadly encountered perhaps more than my fair share of people who support McCain and try to say they don't like Obama because "he's a Muslim" or "his middle name is Hussein" - the first is just incorrect, the second is plain irrelevent. I feel wrong listening to that without responding, even though I'm not comfortable talking about politics with just anyone)


Ugh I hear this ALL THE TIME.  How can you like Obama, he's black, he's Muslim, look at his name, how can you like him?

I always respond that WOW I didn't know we picked our political candidates the same way 5 yr olds pick out crayons!

I am a very loud, stubborn political debater.  Not that I start these political convos but I find that a lot of people are like "ooh musnt discuss because we will disagree".  I say, what is the problem with disagreeing?  Isnt that the point of a 2 party system?  If you will hate me because of the political views I support then hate me you ignorant person. 

Political convos always bring out the best and worst in people.

Sorry for going offtopic!

 



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Chanel

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Yeah, this definitely is a matter of perspective. People who take their politics seriously all feel like we're being picked on from time to time. We all feel like the "other side" is controlling the debate and we're not getting equal time.

As for Hollywood, it generally happens that below-the-line workers as well as performers are liberal, but studio and network heads are conservative.

Interesting point about our governor and star power/charisma. I think that was a factor, but before we characterize CA voters as idiots, be aware that we've had FAR more Republican governors than Democratic governors in our history, and in the last 100 years in particular. Who can forget guys like Earl Warren (who left office to become Chief Justice of the Supreme Court), Ronald Reagan, George Deukmejian, and Pete Wilson? We've only had three Democrats since the 1950s - Pat Brown, Jerry Brown, and Gray Davis, who was recalled before he could finish his second term.

I see this pattern in other states too. Either we like liberals representing our values in Washington but conservatives running our state, or vice-versa!


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Hermes

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Well, I'm glad to hear about the other side of the coin. It must be geographical, i.e. ttara123.  Where I live, I risk physical harm or vandalism displaying anything pro-republican.

As far as the black/muslim ignorant views, those piss me off as well regardless of who I support or how I vote.

Just as all Democrats cannot be stereotyped,  all Republicans cannot be stereotyped either.

Sibeski, you stated, "I vote for what I feel is best for me and my country, not because I am a Republican or Democrat.  Sometimes what I want and what I think is best aren't the same and I end up doing a lot of soul searching on those issues."  This is how I vote as well -- I'm in complete agreement.

Elle, I'm confused as to how you're directing the following comment: "However, I have less respect for anyone who can't explain the reasons for their views in a logical fashion no matter the issue, that goes for life in general not just politics."  Do you feel that people are obligated to discuss and defend their political views publicly?  On this note, I very rarely hear why Democrats support their party -- the majority of what I hear is McCain/Palin bashing -- is this an expression of views in a logical fashion?

"All that said, my general feeling on republicans feeling bullied is that it just happens to be their turn."   
I don't agree with this conclusion as historically (at least throughout my lifetime) the media has always been pro-liberal.  Even if what you state is true, do I correctly follow your logic to be that two wrongs make a right?

Gingembre - saying "narrow-minded democrats" does not conclude that all democrats are narrow-minded.  I consider myself a open-minded voter that tends to vote Republican (but not always), and I know there are Democrats out there that are open-minded as well.  I was speaking of those Democrats who are closed-minded.

XtinaStyles - "If you will hate me because of the political views I support then hate me you ignorant person."    I agree.  I have no hatred for people with views that oppose mine, but I'm shocked at the hatred I see from Democrats toward Republicans -- again, maybe this is geographic. 

Suasoria - I didn't mean to imply that Californians are idiots - it's just an observation I find interesting.  And I agree, it is a matter of perspective.

I guess I'm tired of being belittled for having Republican views.  I don't even watch Saturday Night Live anymore, and it was a show I tivoed every week in the past.  I honestly don't think McCain will win, but I don't vote based on who I think is going to win -- never have.  As Sibeski put it, I'll vote for what I feel is best for me and my country.

I also feel that whoever wins, it's all going to be OK.  Really, I do.  I remember when a peanut farmer was elected president. I was young at the time, but I do remember being afraid.  That peanut farmer ended up being one of our best presidents in the area of foreign relations.  Another thing to remember, is that very little of what is said during campaigning ever takes effect once the candidate is in office.

I just want this election to be over and to move on.  I hate how divisive it makes our country.



ETA: deVisive, not decisive!  dIvisive, not devisive!


-- Edited by D at 15:29, 2008-10-21

-- Edited by D at 17:32, 2008-10-21

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Chanel

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And dIvisive too! Particularly lately...remind me if I'm a "real American" or not?

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Hermes

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Suasoria wrote:

And dIvisive too! Particularly lately...remind me if I'm a "real American" or not?




argh!



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Coach

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Interesting post.

I live in North Texas and I am a former conservative, although I hold a few conservative beliefs, I am almost completely in-line with the Democratic agenda. Around here it is definitely the Republican view that dominates AND bullies, people get real ugly about politics here. I don't discuss politics with people I don't know well.

To hear that Hollywood conservatives feel bullied just makes me wonder to what degree do they consider a disagreement to be bullying? If they were a Democrat in Texas, they might define bullying differently. The entertainment industry is so much more diverse and expressive than corporate America, this is probably the huge factor because there is this comfort level in discussing politics that almost doesn't exist in the rest of the country, where such conversations can be considered impolite.





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Hermes

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D wrote:


Elle, I'm confused as to how you're directing the following comment: "However, I have less respect for anyone who can't explain the reasons for their views in a logical fashion no matter the issue, that goes for life in general not just politics."  Do you feel that people are obligated to discuss and defend their political views publicly?  On this note, I very rarely hear why Democrats support their party -- the majority of what I hear is McCain/Palin bashing -- is this an expression of views in a logical fashion?

"All that said, my general feeling on republicans feeling bullied is that it just happens to be their turn."   
I don't agree with this conclusion as historically (at least throughout my lifetime) the media has always been pro-liberal.  Even if what you state is true, do I correctly follow your logic to be that two wrongs make a right?


What I mean when I say I respect people less who do not have logical reasons for their opinions is just that - those who have no idea what the issues even are, but have an opinion about them anyway.  Or people who don't like Obama because of his middle name.  I hardly expect others to have to defend their opinions to me, but I've had many political conversations recently among friends that proceeded like info-gathering sessions.  I really like to hear other perspectives (from a sociological/psychologial standpoint, and because it helps me clarify my own feelings).  I can only assume that in a non-confrontational exchange with a trusted friend, when they answer 'I don't know, I've never thought about it' to a question on an issue they have a strong opinion about that they aren't just putting me off.  Are they just conflicted?  Have they not researched this or thought about it?  Why, if you have an opinion, would you be unable to describe how or why you arrived there or how it's good?  IMO that's not an informed opinion, and I indeed respect informed opinions more than uninformed ones.  Having an uninformed opinion in my mind is akin to believing a rumor at face value - maybe it's true, maybe not, but how do you know? 

I don't think bashing of any kind is logical or useful, though the candidates have proven in the past that it works - a few studies have been done, one showing that if a person was shown a lie about a candidate they believed it 50% of the time.  If after being shown the lie there were shown a correction of the falsehoods, they believed the lie something like 75% of the time (I can dig up the study if anyone's interested).  When talking politics, I generally ask questions more than spout my own opinion - last time I answered a question, I was called a "baby-killer".  I absolutely lost respect for the person who called me that, and not because they disagreed with me!  I think I would share my support for my party more if I felt I wouldn't be bullied for it by members of the opposing party, and truly I think campaign advertising should be more regulated so lies and negative campaigning aren't as dominant.  Though that I've been told would be an intrusion of the gov't on our rights.  Due to the negative campaigning, I think candidates in general end up spending time defending themselves, which in turn ends up being what everyone talks about. 

As far as bullying, I never said two wrongs make a right - in fact I said more than once that just because one party does it to the other is no excuse for the vicitimized party to turn around and do it themselves.  That's terribly hipocritical, which isn't something I support in any arena.  I think bullying occurs in part because mud-slinging seems to be an accepted form of communication in politics.  Like I said I think it's wrong coming from either side and wish my party would take the high road.  I wasn't talking specifically about the media (which I agree lean liberal) but the voters.  Very often in our system a democratic leader is followed by a republican who's then followed by a democrat.  Each time that transition is made, whichever party is being transitioned from is going to feel like they are the (voting) minority, because they are.  And then the next time around as we move back toward that party, the other party is going to feel like they are the (voting) minority, and they will be right.  It's to be expected as a balancing mechanism in our system.

I have a few Canadian friends I talk politics with, because we each find the others' systems facinating.  IIRC most of their country falls into their equivalent of our democratic party and republican party is a very small percentage - I wonder if they deal with the same issues?

-- Edited by Elle at 19:38, 2008-10-21

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Dooney & Bourke

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I think(and correct me if I'm wrong, D, I don't want to speak for you)what D is feeling is the liberal bent coming from entertainment media. Which is huge, because a lot of what we enjoy in life is watching movies, tv, reading books/magazines, fashion forums etc.  

I feel like a jackass spending $40 a month on fashion magazines that trash my beliefs. I read a fashion magazine because I want to read about fashion, not how I'm "anti-woman" because of something I believe in(this comment was either in Elle or Bazaar) Like D, I've stopped watching SNL and Daily Show because it feels like they have gone into overkill.

I am a Republican(but like Sibeski and D, I am a bipartisan voter and consider myself a moderate). I'm sad that I feel alienated from some of my favorite blogs, forums, magazines, and other entertainment outlets.

I think it is especially hard being a Republican female as this is how I think fashion magazines see mewink:
mormum2AP1504_468x315.jpg

(edited to protect the innocent who do not want to be discussed on the internetz)
 



-- Edited by fairlight at 15:10, 2008-10-22

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Chanel

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Elle wrote:

What I mean when I say I respect people less who do not have logical reasons for their opinions is just that - those who have no idea what the issues even are, but have an opinion about them anyway.  ...

I can only assume that in a non-confrontational exchange with a trusted friend, when they answer 'I don't know, I've never thought about it' to a question on an issue they have a strong opinion about that they aren't just putting me off.  Are they just conflicted?  Have they not researched this or thought about it?  Why, if you have an opinion, would you be unable to describe how or why you arrived there or how it's good?  IMO that's not an informed opinion, and I indeed respect informed opinions more than uninformed ones. 

 



Just to play devil's advocate for a sec...the concept of a logical or illogical reason, informed versus uninformed, is often itself a matter of opinion and perspective. This is something I try to keep in mind whenever I have these conversations.

For example, someone who belongs to a particular religion may look to their religious texts or leadership when forming an opinion. To them it's a perfectly valid, logical, informed reason. Since I lack this identification, it isn't logical to me.

I'm sensitive to the suffering and welfare of animals, so I'm a big supporter of Prop 2 here in CA. It's logical to me to treat animals humanely and respectfully, but MY logic isn't logical to someone who doesn't have compassion for animals. So I have to make my argument on other grounds, or the conversation stalls.

If we can't challenge our own understanding of the issues in this context, we won't really connect with each other. What I mean is, we each have an identity, an attachment to our own perspective or our own BS (Belief System, of course). So we have to detach from our BS and attach to that other person's BS if we want to get anywhere.

If, based on their own BS, they still don't make sense, well, then I agree. There's probably no hope for connection or respect, and ya probably can't avoid confrontation.

 



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Coach

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Suasoria wrote:

And dIvisive too! Particularly lately...remind me if I'm a "real American" or not?



*LOL* *LOL*!!!



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Kate Spade

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ttara123 wrote:

I've had the same experience as you, gingembre1, but I guess I figured it was because I'm in Kentucky (a red state) and most people here assume you're republican unless you say otherwise. I hate it, especially since I'm not particularly vocal about my political beliefs (I try to live by the "no religion or politics in polite company" rule) and feel uncomfortable arguing about it with people, but when I hear some of the stupid stuff that comes out of people's mouths, I feel like it's my responsibility to correct them.

(obviously I'm not saying that everyone who holds beliefs counter to mine is stupid, but I've sadly encountered perhaps more than my fair share of people who support McCain and try to say they don't like Obama because "he's a Muslim" or "his middle name is Hussein" - the first is just incorrect, the second is plain irrelevent. I feel wrong listening to that without responding, even though I'm not comfortable talking about politics with just anyone)



I so know what you mean.  Living in this area (Cincinnati\Northern Kentucky) it is hard to be anything but conservative.  I think our out-spoken radio personalities around here make it even worse too.   We have one guy on the radio who says "Barack HUSSEIN Obama" everytime he mentions his name  and it is so annoying!  It just makes him sound like a huge idiot.  I can't even listen to the news anymore on radio it annoys me so much.  It is soo one-sided here. 

Personally, I am a moderate independent and as usual, there is no perfect candidate for me to vote for.  I am split down the middle (on some isssues I lean Republican and I others Democrat) so I usually do go the polls not knowing who to choose.   I usually end up voting Democrat but my hubby always votes Republican so we just cancel out each others votes anyway!





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Marc Jacobs

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ttara123 wrote:

I've had the same experience as you, gingembre1, but I guess I figured it was because I'm in Kentucky (a red state) and most people here assume you're republican unless you say otherwise. I hate it, especially since I'm not particularly vocal about my political beliefs (I try to live by the "no religion or politics in polite company" rule) and feel uncomfortable arguing about it with people, but when I hear some of the stupid stuff that comes out of people's mouths, I feel like it's my responsibility to correct them.

(obviously I'm not saying that everyone who holds beliefs counter to mine is stupid, but I've sadly encountered perhaps more than my fair share of people who support McCain and try to say they don't like Obama because "he's a Muslim" or "his middle name is Hussein" - the first is just incorrect, the second is plain irrelevent. I feel wrong listening to that without responding, even though I'm not comfortable talking about politics with just anyone)




Like D, I am in a very blue area here in Chicago.  I mean, Obama is from here for Pete's sake!  Anyway, while I call myself a democrat, I do agree with some more right sided issues so I guess I am a middle gal that leans more to the left.  I am by no means a liberal though.  I do feel really sorry for my friends that are "righties" because they do not feel "safe" expressing their views in this town.  I think that is terrible.  This is America after all and freedom of speech is one of our greatest freedoms. 

Anyway, ttara, I am the same way as you about these discussions.  I really try to keep my views to myself (although I have a view friends on both sides of the coin that I love to have thoughtful political discussions with which I enjoy very much), but ignorance is so annoying to me that I want to scream.  My mother is one of these people.  She is a Bill O'Reilly follower (who I loathe with every fiber of my being) and she believes everything she hears on TV.  e.g.  That O'Reilly is unbiased.  HA!  Look at that mans views for about 10 seconds and tell me that he isn't a far right Conservative, yeah right.  Anyway, she is one of those people that insists that Obama is a Muslim and that he must be a terrorist although I have given her proof that these things are false.  She just refuses to budge.  Because of this I have asked her to not speak to me about politics: I do not relish arguing with my mother, especially when the arguments are not based on fact, but in every conversation that we have she brings it up.  Unfortunately, I told her that I do not want to speak with her until the campaign is over.  I'm not mad at her, I love her, but I can't take anymore of her trying to bully me to vote McCain.  You girls are right, this election is dividing people too much and I think it sucks.   



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Marc Jacobs

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Given the current tenor of the Republican campaign, Republican-leaning news organizations and Repulican talking heads (Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh feel STIFLED?") I think any sort of attempt to play the victim is just projection.

I have lived in the midwest all my life, and it's completely the other way around there - despite all this 'Liberals are out to get us..." storyline that comes up in every election cycle. I have heard about the liberal plot to silence the Republicans (who have been in charge of all branches of government since 1994, and only lost Congress a year and a half ago). I've heard that liberals are attempting to marginalize the Christians (when 80% of the population identifies with Protestant-based religious views). And that liberals want to promote some sort of wealth-spreading class war (what do you think we're using to pay police officers? Fairy dust? OR TAXES?)

It's all fear-mongering. Republicans aren't oppressing me when they fail to agree with my views. I don't understand why they think "Those Liberals" are out to get them when they exercise their very liegitimate right to join the other of our TWO PARTY SYSTEM. I'm not oppressing anyone when I vote the other way. (Leaving aside, for a minute, the very real oppression which has characterized the eight-year assault on civil rights in this last administration).




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Kate Spade

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gingembre1 wrote:

D- I find it funny that you feel that Republicans are afraid to voice their opinions for fear of being attacked by "narrow-minded Democrats." I actually find the COMPLETE OPPOSITE to be true.


Ditto. I always thought it more the otherway. Everyone attacks everyone though.



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Hermes

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Suasoria wrote:

Elle wrote:

What I mean when I say I respect people less who do not have logical reasons for their opinions is just that - those who have no idea what the issues even are, but have an opinion about them anyway.  ...

I can only assume that in a non-confrontational exchange with a trusted friend, when they answer 'I don't know, I've never thought about it' to a question on an issue they have a strong opinion about that they aren't just putting me off.  Are they just conflicted?  Have they not researched this or thought about it?  Why, if you have an opinion, would you be unable to describe how or why you arrived there or how it's good?  IMO that's not an informed opinion, and I indeed respect informed opinions more than uninformed ones. 




Just to play devil's advocate for a sec...the concept of a logical or illogical reason, informed versus uninformed, is often itself a matter of opinion and perspective. This is something I try to keep in mind whenever I have these conversations.

For example, someone who belongs to a particular religion may look to their religious texts or leadership when forming an opinion. To them it's a perfectly valid, logical, informed reason. Since I lack this identification, it isn't logical to me.

I'm sensitive to the suffering and welfare of animals, so I'm a big supporter of Prop 2 here in CA. It's logical to me to treat animals humanely and respectfully, but MY logic isn't logical to someone who doesn't have compassion for animals. So I have to make my argument on other grounds, or the conversation stalls.

If we can't challenge our own understanding of the issues in this context, we won't really connect with each other. What I mean is, we each have an identity, an attachment to our own perspective or our own BS (Belief System, of course). So we have to detach from our BS and attach to that other person's BS if we want to get anywhere.

If, based on their own BS, they still don't make sense, well, then I agree. There's probably no hope for connection or respect, and ya probably can't avoid confrontation.



I totally agree that our own 'framing' and belief systems come into play as to what argument is logical and which isn't - like I said I don't lose respect for those that disagree with me.  But if someone got all their info from Bill O'Reily and thinks every word out of his mouth is the gospel wink.gif, well ...... what do you say to that?!  Like you I have a hard time identifying with those who rely on their religion for their opinions, because I am not religious, but at least to them it's a reason, ya know?  "Bill O'Reily said ..." or "I just got an email (from an extremist fear-mongering website) that ..." are not. valid. reasons. for well, anything IMO!

I just got forwarded two hateful emails regarding Obama from some family (who believe everything they receive via email weirdface) talking about how Obama is a racist and using twisted quotes from his books to 'prove' it (!!) and a lawsuit against Obama trying to prove his citizenship 'doesn't count' and therefore he is uneligible for president.  I forwarded both to watchdog at barackobama dot com (for reporting smear campaigns), and replied back to my family with a link to the snopes info devilish.gif.  This is just another way this particular family member spreads lies, and I've basically not believed a word out of their mouth (or from their keyboard) for years!

I think there would be alot less material to be used for bullying if the smear campaigns were banned.  IMO everyone on each side isn't using them to bully others obviously, and I'm sure those who are would find another way.  But there are those who make the commercials and draft the emails, and there are those that just watch or forward such things, kwim?  If those who make/draft don't have anything to make/draft, there would be less garbage floating around.

If many of the studio execs/producers are republican, wouldn't republican actors/workers be at an advantage?

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