STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

cc · Marc Jacobs

RE: RE: RE: Is college a load of crap? - a spinoff

dixiegirl · BCBG

RE: Is college a load of crap? - a spinoff rant

Andrea Julia · Coach

quote:
Originally posted by: halleybird
" it all depends on where you live, of course...but my state has notoriously low salaries. If I stayed in Tucson, I would make $22,000 before taxes. I don't remember where you live, but there are some states with decent salaries (AZ not among them), but the salary you mentioned is not the national norm (which about $43,000 for veteran teachers). The reason teachers complain about money is because our job requires so many different types of skills at once. When I am in a classroom, I am a) delivering a lesson or assignment; b) constantly correcting and reprogramming behavior; c)watching for those kids who may be needing extra help (emotional or academic) d) trying to be equitable in terms of workloads (i.e. is Bobby getting called on as much as Jill is?) e) adjusting the lesson to be faster-paced for the gifted kids, or slower-paced for the LD kids. I am doing this all at once, five times a day, every day. In addition to teaching, I am also responsible for being the Gum Police, the Dress Code Police, a social worker, a mentor, a role model, a letter-writer, a tutor and an involved co-worker. In addition, the "real job" is not when the kids are there -- it's the meetings, the planning, the constant re-evaluation of work, and don't get me started on the grading (150 freshman research papers...makes for some fun weekends). Also, I am required to attend all sorts of school events and activities for which I do not get paid. I am responsible for being reachable 18 hours a day to parents and students with questions -- sometimes longer. My lunch break is 33 minutes, 15 of which are usually full of students getting extra help. I am lucky if I get one bathroom break in the 7-hour schoolday. I do not get Christmas bonuses, holiday parties, paid trips, overtime or any other perks that my husband and others I know get from their jobs. I love my job -- if I didn't, I could easily go back to being a copy editor or reporter. I am sure I sound defensive, but I have had a lot of other jobs in journalism, retail, etc. and none of them even comes close to the work I have to do as a teacher. Sometimes it gets really old to hear people say, "well, you have 3 months off a year" (unpaid months off, that is.) or "must be nice to go home at 2:15" (I wouldn't know...if I'm at home at 2:15, I'm grading). My concern in this topic was not what I was told, but what students are expecting when they attend college. Personally, I went to college because I was a brown-nosing overachiever. Salary didn't really matter."

I'm sorry if I insulted you in some way. I didn't mean to. It's just that I have several friends that are teachers and I think they are doing pretty well. They always talk about how little they are making, but when salary comes up, they have all told me they make between 40,000-42,000. One of my friends who is a teacher just the other day was like "I won't make $80,000 for at least another 10 years". And I was like "oh poor you." I didn't realize teachers in other areas make $22,000. That's really low. That definitely isn't fair. $40,000, I do feel is fair though.

Anyway, back to the main topic. For some jobs, college is a load of crap. So many jobs require a college degree, but the degree isn't even used on the job. I could have easily done my job with no college education. There is never a day when I am like "wow, I am so glad I took that class in school. It has been so helpful to me." I think a lot of jobs are like that. You really learn all you need to know on the job. However, I would have NEVER gotten my job without a college degree. Nobody would have hired me.

I think that people should not automatically go to college after high school unless they already know what they want to do. Taking a few years off to figure out what you want should be encouraged instead of people telling you that if you don't go right away, you won't go back. College is really more useful when you have a specific goal. You should come up with a goal, determine if a degree is really needed or if you can attain the same goal with work experience and starting at the absolute bottom. I have to admit: my goal in college was to go to college. I never knew what I wanted to do; I just knew I wanted to join a sorority and meet a lot of people. I did have a good time and graduated cum laude, but I think that I probably would have been better off working until I knew what I wanted to do. Now I have tons of college loans so even if I figure out what I want to do, I probably won't want to spend the money. I could have just worked all that time and saved money.

Andrea Julia · Coach

RE: RE: RE: RE: Is college a load of crap? - a spinoff

halleybird · Hermes

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Is college a load of crap? - a spinoff rant

Andrea Julia · Coach

quote:
Originally posted by: halleybird
" no, not at all, promise I just hear people tell me how "easy" my job is all the time, so I'm a little testy. I didn't mean to sound like I was going off on you; I'm sorry."

No problem and hey, I never said your job was easy. I just said they didn't get paid horribly (and that was before I knew some teachers were paid $22,000. I thought that was something that was done away with).

halleybird · Hermes

quote:
Originally posted by: Andrea Julia
"No problem and hey, I never said your job was easy. I just said they didn't get paid horribly (and that was before I knew some teachers were paid $22,000. I thought that was something that was done away with)."

oh, I know you didn't. A lot of people do think that way, though, so it set me off.

Actually, my sister just got her BA in education (she lives in Tucson). She took a job as a manager at Hollister so she can make more money.

-- Edited by halleybird at 22:09, 2005-01-06

kenzie · Chanel

Well, for me all that college has brought was a crapload of debt and a boring, mindless retail management job that I'm sure a monkey could do if trained properly. I went to college to broaden my proverbial horizons and get out of the land of customer service (in which I have worked since I was 16). But I'm still doing the same job (basically) that I was doing 10 years ago. Sad. And I don't need that degree to do this job.

I honestly can say that I wish I hadn't gone to college. It is one of my biggest regrets in life. Maybe if I hadn't gone to college straight out of high school, I would have made better and more insightful choices. I had no idea what the crap I wanted to do (I thought I did, but retrospectively, I was clueless). So now I'm in debt up over my eyeballs and working in job that is absolutely meaningless and mind-numbing.

I agree with several of the girls who said the only way to go is to work for yourself. And again, nothing in my degree is going to help me pursue that ambition. And I have no idea how much money I will make when I finally do start working for myself. But money really isn't the issue for me. Right now, I'm making pretty decent money (almost as much as my bf and roommate, who have been out of college for five years; I've been out for two).

I know that if and when I have kids, I will not tell them that have to go to college to succeed and that they do have other choices. I hope that my kids don't make the same mistakes I made.

dixiegirl · BCBG

Nylabelle, just curious what was your major?

Mia · Kate Spade

Halleybird, you really hit a nail on the head with this post/thread. I think it comes down to the question of WHY one attends university/college. Is it to get an education in the classical sense of the word - to expand your mind and broaden you intellectual horizons? Or is it to increase your future earning potential?

I went to university for the first reason, although my parents wanted me to go for the second reason and weren't too excited about my English/History focus. I am glad I went, very glad, and want to continue, but it has nothing to do with money. If I wanted to be rich I would work for myself. Even with very advanced degrees in lucrative fields (law, medicine), you'll be making a lot (6 figures+ a lot of the time) but you'll never be rich-rich - the kind of wealth that - oh what's that cheesy saying? "Rich is when your money works for you, you don't work for your money." Those lawyers who make 500,000K a year tend to WORK for it.

So I personally don't feel bitter at all. But do I think it is very misleading to be telling 18 yr olds that unless they get a degree they're going to be pulling in fast food wages for life? Oh yeah. As others have mentioned, bachelors degrees are a dime a dozen these days - so many people have them you need to go further to distinguish yourself in any way, probably to a PhD level. And that means, unless you have someone paying your way, big debt. It's not as simple as education = financial security. Not at all. Maybe it was 50 years ago but not anymore. It makes me a bit angry when I see parents focusing so narrowly on "go to university or else!" when that just doesn't apply anymore. You *might* get a high paying job with a BA, but there's also a pretty big chance you'll be making $25,000K and paying off a huge student debt load for years.

I know a guy who trained as an apprentice plumber and everyone in our highschool class thought he was nuts and some even made fun of him - guess who now owns his own thriving business, 3 homes and can afford numerous expensive vacations every year?

-- Edited by Mia at 23:01, 2005-01-06

kenzie · Chanel

dixiegirl, my major was magazine journalism and public relations. I did my internships in the public relations/event planning areas.

ayo · Coach

I simply don't agree that getting your undergraduate degree is a waste of time and does not guarantee financial security.

If your sole purpose of going to school is to make more money that is a reasonable and attainable goal. I honestly believe I can be happy doing anything as long as I feel like I'm being compensated properly for it. I see my job as a vehicle to make money; I've chosen this career path because I think my mental aptitude leans more towards the sciences and math (I am obviously not a writer ). It's not my first choice of things I would like to do with my life but I've learned to enjoy it. I've also learned to keep my work life ratio balanced. I'm not going to kill myself working ridiculous hours simply to make a dollar.

I would much rather be working has a backstage dresser at fashion shows, traveling the world buying art for museum’s or launching a singing career but I know if I REALLY want to do that I can make time to do that when I'm not working and hopefully one day it will pay off.

I am thankful my parents did encourage me to take this path. Let's face it, money makes the world go round, we all obviously like certain material things (this is a fashion forum after all) and those material things require money.

valenciana · Dooney & Bourke

quote:
Originally posted by: ayo
Although when you get to the college professor level all that sympathy goes down the drain, some of the professors at the local Univ here are making 200k+ . I know because they publicize their salaries every year.

I presume this is a private university you're talking about. Because I don't know any college professors at public universities that make anywhere close to half that much. Private schools, perhaps, such as where I work right now, the faculty make probably an average of 50K, going up to 150K for dept. heads, etc. But public schools, such as where my dad works, hahaha...there's no way. He doesn't even make 50, let alone 200K.

Furthermore, my aunt has been an elem. school teacher for 30 years and I know she does not make more than 40K, because that is the salary cap for teachers in the county she works in. Not to mention, I work in an academic library where we hire people straight from their masters programs and pay them exactly 33K a year. Ridiculous.

quote:
Originally posted by: Andrea Julia
I think that people should not automatically go to college after high school unless they already know what they want to do. Taking a few years off to figure out what you want should be encouraged instead of people telling you that if you don't go right away, you won't go back. College is really more useful when you have a specific goal. You should come up with a goal, determine if a degree is really needed or if you can attain the same goal with work experience and starting at the absolute bottom. I have to admit: my goal in college was to go to college. I never knew what I wanted to do; I just knew I wanted to join a sorority and meet a lot of people. I did have a good time and graduated cum laude, but I think that I probably would have been better off working until I knew what I wanted to do. Now I have tons of college loans so even if I figure out what I want to do, I probably won't want to spend the money. I could have just worked all that time and saved money. "

Okay, so I agree with those that have said that college is not a load of crap, in the sense that it expands your mind, teaches you to think, is valuable in the growing up process, blah blah blah. But I don't think you should necessarily wait to go to college until you come up with a specific goal and decide if you need the degree. Now that I'm 25, I have finally just now come up with a career goal (one I never would have arrived at without certain experiences I had in college and working at my college-degree-required job). If I had waited until now to go to school for what I want to do, I would now be looking at a 4 year bachelor's program, followed by a 3 year master's program, which I couldn't start until the Fall. Looking at seven years of education is pretty daunting, especially for someone going back to school after being away, being an "older" student, giving up a steady income, having to wait that long to actually get into their chosen field...etc. As for having saved more money, now, I've only been working 3 years, instead of the 7 theorhetically could have been had I skipped college, but I still could not have saved enough money in that amount of time to afford seven years of school. And that's assuming I would have been making the same salary as I am right now, which I'm only making due to my college degree.

One last thing...the jobs that are "requiring" college degrees these days are ridiculous. When I was first looking for a job out of college, I got conned into a day-long interview with one of those "marketing" companies that act like their so prestigious but are really just door-to-door coupon sale pyramid schemes. (I think I remember HeatherLynn maybe? had an interview with one of them last year and we all pulled out our experiences with these nightmares.) I specifically remember them telling me that they only hired people with bachelors degrees because it "showed commitment." WTF??? Commitment to what? Sticking with a supremely crappy job such as the one they're hiring for???

-- Edited by valenciana at 10:43, 2005-01-07

Ally S · Kate Spade

I am in NJ like AJ, but in the Central/ Southern end of the state. $40K to start is not completely unheard of in the wealthier communities in this end of the state, but there are only a handful of communities that DO pay that.

For instance in Trenton, NJ (State's capitol city) teachers in the public school system must be certified to start and then begin with $23K, with a Master's they would start at $33K. Tenure has also been done away with and medical benefits are not the greatest. In the wealthier bedroom communities a Master's degreed teacher would start at apprx. $45K and these communities all offer tenure.

In order for a teacher to break through the glass ceiling into these school systems, they must work as a substitute or be involved in a tutoring program for a certain length of time.Of course they are not paid as well as a substitute.

That hinders those that are just out of school and need to find a full time teaching position and steady, constant income. Hence they must find employment in the more urban areas where the lower but steady income is available.

As far as higher education translating to higher income, I agree with the posters that stated that some of this comes from a sense of entitlement. I got my degree, I deserved to be paid.

College is a learning experience in so many ways and the opportunitites that it offers in terms of growing and maturing is invaluable. I believe that not everyone needs to have a college degree to succeed, but these are people that have a different vision and have found a different path in life.

There are many "blue" collar workers that make much more then "white" collar professionals, I think its more important to decide exactly what one wants to do in their life. We all know certain fields pay more then others, face it...anything in the education/academic fields are underpaid. I knew when I went to Rutger's SCILs program for my MLIS that I would never get rich, heck I know when I finally get my Ph.D that I still won't be rich, but I love what I do.

My hubby is a tenured Prof. in Political Science specializing in Central and South American Studies. He does quite well because of his specialty, but a Poli-Sci degree or even a Poli-Sci Ph.D alone pays squat.

It's almost like being a physician, an ER doc is paid little, a cardiologist is paid more, a brain surgeon even more and a transplant surgeon is at the top of their game.

I have never regretted my choice of career, it does grate on me that an under educated person makes more then me, but I love what I do so that is my big pay off.

Phew! That was long.

ayo · Coach

Nope I do mean public university.....

both of my parents are educators and work in public universities (my dad is a provost, my mom heads a counseling department) but I'm not even referring to their colleagues necessarily, they would be on the higher paying scale I guess because they are doing more of the administration aspect, I don't know. I do mean the ones in the classroom..I think last year the lowest salary I saw was around 50k and that was for a TA position.

I guess I shouldn't suggest that is the norm even at the university level *shrug*

quote:

Originally posted by: valenciana
" I presume this is a private university you're talking about. Because I don't know any college professors at public universities that make anywhere close to half that much. Private schools, perhaps, such as where I work right now, the faculty make probably an average of 50K, going up to 150K for dept. heads, etc. But public schools, such as where my dad works, hahaha...there's no way. He doesn't even make 50, let alone 200K. Furthermore, my aunt has been an elem. school teacher for 30 years and I know she does not make more than 40K, because that is the salary cap for teachers in the county she works in. Not to mention, I work in an academic library where we hire people straight from their masters programs and pay them exactly 33K a year. Ridiculous.

Lilykind · Hermes

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Is college a load of crap? - a spinoff

Prissy · Dooney & Bourke

RE: Is college a load of crap? - a spinoff rant

Dizzy · Marc Jacobs

I was just looking through old posts and saw this - you have to read Barbara Erenreich's book "Bait and Switch" on this exact subject. In one of those weird coincidences, I finished it last week...

She says that corporate cost-cutting has basically sacrificed the "people who do it right," dooming them to longer hours and no financial security. Also she makes fun of the job search industry and it is devastatingly hilarious (depressing, but hilarious).

Kelly · Hermes

I am in college now, I have a major and three minors - but all of them are kind of dinky fields as far as income goes (communications, english, latin, psychology...nothing very prestigious there!) Obviously, I'm not going to college specifically to have a large income later, because nothing I'm interested in, or studying, is that lucrative of a career path. I love college for it's own mind-expanding and erudite experience. However, if I thought that it wouldn't help me make money later on, I would have thought twice about going. I can't really think of a job that I could get without a degree, that would pay the bills. Right now I'm surviving with my jobs, because I have an itty bitty apartment and no responsibilities. But when I want to actually have an apartment with more than one room? In a neighborhood where I would feel safe raising my hypothetical kids with all of their (and my) expenses? There is absolutely no way I would make it. Just having my degree will open a lot of doors that wouldn't be there otherwise. Maybe it's not fair, but I think that's how it is.

Also, some people were talking about how you shouldn't go to college until you have a goal. Perhaps that's true in a vague sense, but I think that the process of going to college has helped me refine them. I've picked up two minors of which I never dreamt before. By going to all of the classes in my major, finding internships, speaking with professors, etc., is how I actually started to form goals. College let me see what is out there, what there actually is to shoot for. I didn't know enough before college to even understand what I wanted to do.

I definitely know people who haven't gone to college who are doing well. However, it is by doing things like driving a UPS truck all day and only being home on the weekends, things that I would never do anyway. If someone has the drive and determination, they might have a chance to be okay without a degree. But if you tried to put me behind a truck, away from home for a week at a time? I wouldn't survive. So for anything that I would actually consider spending my time doing, I will need my degree.

-- Edited by ttara123 at 19:11, 2006-06-02

Renee · Kenneth Cole

ayo wrote:

.I think last year the lowest salary I saw was around 50k and that was for a TA position.

I would like to be a TA in that university. I have never heard of a TA being paid 50,000$ , it sounds completely ridiculous to me.
Here at UC Berkeley TAs subsist on a pauper's salary. I earned about 15,000 a year before tax at a 50% position, which is, trust me, not enough to survive in the Bay Area.

My friend, a brilliant scholar with multiple publications and a recent Ph.D from Stanford, was offered two jobs - one at a lucrative private college and another at UC Berkeley. She chose Berkeley over the college and is now struggling to find a place to *rent* here. She does not earn 50,000$. Of course she would be better off financially at the private college, where she would be able to afford to buy her own place right away. But then again, we don't make our choices for the money. There is the intellectual excitement, the constant learning, the brilliant students, the wonderful colleagues, the eureka moments, the rush of seing your work in print...

I think that it all depends on your dreams. I always wanted to be a linguist. Before college, I was offered a job in IT. In fact, all my friends from that period got jobs in IT. I turned the offer down; when I made a decision to study linguistics at the university, I knew very well I would never be making the kind of money that I was offered. I often think about the choice I made... After all, I do love clothes and travel and art and all beautiful things. And yet I am living my dream. Financial success on its own can bring fulfillment and happiness, but not to everybody.

-- Edited by Renee at 19:34, 2006-06-02

-- Edited by Renee at 19:34, 2006-06-02