STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

Hermes

Obama's 'Sweetie': Spontaneous or Sexist?

jj · Kate Spade

Hmm...I am trying to think of what the male-to-male equivalent of "sweetie" would be. "Buddy" maybe? Would a guy get offended if someone said, "Hold on a second, buddy."

Also, would people be upset if Hilary referred to another woman or man as "sweetie," or would it be considered motherly?

I agree it's a bad habit, but after living near Baltimore where men and women refer to both men and women as "hon," I tend to disregard these terms.

Now if someone said to me, "hey jackass!" that would be a different story.

Kelly · Hermes

I agree with jj. I know it's not politically correct but I tend to look past it when anyone says this, unless they are demeaning in context.

littlebean · Kate Spade

Although I do think that "sweetie" can be used in a condescending and sexist way, his usage of it in the article does seem to be more along the lines of "buddy" or "hon" so I don't find it troubling.

esquiress · Marc Jacobs

yeah, I'm with ttara and jj on this one. I just can't get riled up about it because I use the terms "sweetie" "honey" "dear" "babe" and "baby" constantly. And usually, I use it the way Obama did, to soften some negative thing I'm saying: Like "Sweetie, come on we're running late" or "What, babe?" when I didn't hear something someone said.

However, I do agree that all those terms can be used in a condescending context. I remember once going on a road trip with my boyfriend at the time and I was trying to figure out where we were on the map and he turned to me and said "honey, you don't know how to read a map?" and his tone was soooo condescending when he said it--ugh!

Oddly enough, I picked up saying "sweetie" from an older woman judge I used to work for. "honey" from one of my best friends, "babe" from another. And another older woman judge I also used work to work for said "dear" all the time. You know what though? the one male judge I worked for never said any of those terms, he was very formal (in a good way), so Obama should prob. err on that side.

So anyway, I guess I'd have to hear the way Obama said it to determine if I think he was being condescending/sexist or not but because of my own experiences, I can't infer he's sexist based on just his use of terms of endearment.

Oh and for the record, I was pulling for Hillary to win but even I'm letting that hope go at this point.

blubirde · Chanel

I agree with you, D, 100%. I abhor the use of "terms of endearment" in casual settings. I think it's demeaning, condescending, and sexist. If any man ever calls me "hon" or "sweetie" or "darlin'," you can bet your ass I'm responding in like, i.e. "no problem, sweet cheeks." Or, if I'm in a more confrontational mood, I'll tell the person to refrain from calling me that, period.

It really ticks me off that Obama used the word and has used it repeatedly. That said, he's my guy and one of the reasons I like him is that he makes mistakes, owns them, and apologizes for them, as he did in this instance. I'll tentatively give him the benefit of the doubt, especially because I don't believe he's a misogynist or sexist or anything of the like. I'm pretty sure Michelle would never have married a man like that, or if she did, she'd knock some sense into him straight away.

So yeah, it sucks. I think the whole phrase completely illustrates how it's been much easier to be a sexist in this election than it is to be a racist, although neither are acceptable. It's just that we call out the racism all the time, even when it might not be there, but we completely look past the sexism.

I don't doubt Obama but only because it's him. If it were anyone else they'd be on my hate list right now.

jj · Kate Spade

Ok, this is not to provoke, but just because I am curious - blubirde, if a woman called you hon, sweetie or darlin, would you have the same reaction and response?

gingembre1 · Kate Spade

I find it demeaning and inappropriate in a professional relationship, whether it is a man or a woman using these terms of endearment. For example, one of the customer service reps my company deals with constantly says dear, sweetie, hon, etc, and I find it aggravating, annoying, and inappropriate. I think that Obama, in the kind of public role he has chosen for himself, should be that much more concscious of treating everyone with respect, man or woman. And since he's not using "terms of endearment" with male reporters/campaign workers/supporters, it just highlights the disrespectful nature of his calling this reporter sweetie.

I'm not against people using those words in casual conversation and interaction, but I think that a potential future leader of our country should be held to a much higher standard in how he deals with people on a professional level.

Suasoria · Chanel

C., both of the above: spontaneous AND sexist. (But I'd still vote for him over Clinton, heh.)

Terms like these should never be used in a professional context. (My BFFs and I do call each other 'honey' and 'sweetie.' So did Monica, Rachel and Phoebe...)

From Clinton, I think it might be motherly/sisterly, but still annoying and condescending. If it was Oldie McWhitey (McCain), though, we wouldn't even be parsing it. We'd just shrug and say 'well, he's old school, who cares.'

-- Edited by Suasoria at 21:23, 2008-05-16

ILoveChoo · Hermes

I agree with both. It makes me cringe every time I hear it (from a man or a woman), but I do understand that it can be a bad habit too and he may not mean anything by it. He should try a little harder to stop though.

fwiw, I also cringe every time McCain says "my friend"

Hermes

blubirde wrote:

I agree with you, D, 100%. I abhor the use of "terms of endearment" in casual settings. I think it's demeaning, condescending, and sexist. If any man ever calls me "hon" or "sweetie" or "darlin'," you can bet your ass I'm responding in like, i.e. "no problem, sweet cheeks." Or, if I'm in a more confrontational mood, I'll tell the person to refrain from calling me that, period.

If it were anyone else they'd be on my hate list right now.

Blubirde - I love your honesty -- I almost came back on to ask "how would you feel if it were bush saying that?" since so many are infatuated with obama...

jj - I really don't think there's a male equivalent to "sweetie" or "hon" -- if you wouldn't address a man with "sweetie" or "hon", then don't say it to a woman, IMO. ESPECIALLY in a professional context.

kenzie · Chanel

D wrote:

blubirde wrote:

I agree with you, D, 100%. I abhor the use of "terms of endearment" in casual settings. I think it's demeaning, condescending, and sexist. If any man ever calls me "hon" or "sweetie" or "darlin'," you can bet your ass I'm responding in like, i.e. "no problem, sweet cheeks." Or, if I'm in a more confrontational mood, I'll tell the person to refrain from calling me that, period.

If it were anyone else they'd be on my hate list right now.

Blubirde - I love your honesty -- I almost came back on to ask "how would you feel if it were bush saying that?" since so many are infatuated with obama...

jj - I really don't think there's a male equivalent to "sweetie" or "hon" -- if you wouldn't address a man with "sweetie" or "hon", then don't say it to a woman, IMO. ESPECIALLY in a professional context.

Ditto to all this. I hate, hate, hate it when people other than my mother or my boyfriend address me with terms of endearment. I find it sexist and condescending 100% of the time, whether it comes from a man or a woman. And my hatred of it is compounded when it occurs in a professional setting.

ayo · Coach

I personally do not see what the big deal is.
It wouldn't matter to me if it was Bush, Chaney, Obama etc who said it.
While I do agree it is a bit informal for such a setting IMHO it is neither demeaning nor condescending. I think it's all about intent, if he called her "sweetie" and then proceeded to berate her, I'd see a big problem.

The lady that serves me pancakes at my local diner calls me "hon" or "sweetie" all the time. This does not offend me because I'm pretty sure she does not have any malicious intents.

relrel · Marc Jacobs

Do words really speak louder than actions?

This is totally a case of something getting blown out of proportion by the media. If Obama has shown any inclination for being sexist then, yes...it's a big deal. But seriously? Obama calling somebody sweetie is a total non-issue.

People who have to deal with the public on a daily basis sometimes get really good at reading situations and slightly changing their behavior to fit who they are speaking to at that moment. I work with patients (all women) and have to spend a good part of my day talking to them. They range in ages from young teenagers to late forties and come from all backgrounds and races. I change how I speak depending on the patient. Without knowing more about the "Sweetie" situation, I like to think that Obama was trying to soften the blow of not answering her question. By referring to her as sweetie, he's implying (subconsciously or not) that they have a personal relationship which would give him the ability to basically fob her question off. I've totally done that- obviously not in a political situation, of course. Sometimes, if I'm trying to appease someone, I'll be much more informal than I normally would be.

However, I've also been in situations where those types of terms were used and it wasn't appropriate it all. I truly do think that you have to look at the situation and the people using the terms. To call words like sweetie and hon terms of endearment forces the issue, that they are always inappropriate. I like to think of them as terms of familiarity- which is sometimes appropriate and sometimes not appropriate.

blink · Coach

Spontaneous. No big deal IMO in most cases and from what I have heard from Obama, he isn't sexist. The guy has a family of all females, he probably uses the word habitually and it's just too much for me to expect that the word doesn't get blurted out in the professional world occasionally when the camera is rolling on him constantly. He apologized for it, for me, that's the end of the story.

NCshopper · Hermes

I don't know how I feel about this. For the most part, I really hate the term "sweetie" (or any similar term) when it comes from someone I don't know. However some people can pull it off and it depends entirely on the context: the connotation, the ages and gender of those speaking, the region of the country, etc. If it's coming from a waitress with a thick Southern accent, no problem. If it's coming from a man in a business situation, we have a BIG problem.

That being said, I think in Obama's case, I'm with blubirde. If this were anyone else, like Bush or Cheney, I'd have a big problem with it and see it as them being sexist, probably because to me they represent "the establishment": rich, white men that hold other people down. But nothing that Obama's said or done has lead me to believe he is sexist, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that it was a slip of the tongue. But he should still try to catch himself in the future. I do appreciate that he apologized for it.

This all leads me to say that I really hate the media in our country sometimes. The 24 hour news networks generally don't have enough to talk about and so they make mountains out of molehills and get people fired up unnecessarily about stuff we would have never heard about 10 years ago (and we weren't any worse off for being unaware of 90% of it). These types of stories are "non-events" in my book and don't really lead to a better-informed public.

-- Edited by NCshopper at 22:06, 2008-05-19

XtinaStyles · Marc Jacobs

"Sweetie" and "Hon" are condescending terms. The only time they are cute and charming is when they come out of a southern waitress' mouth and thats probably the only time you'll hear them in a non-threatening way.

Notice Obama does it when he has to "let someone down" and tell them no. Its like daddy looking down to his daughter "Sweetie, I don't have time to read a bedtime story to you"

That said, I don't think it should sway the election but it seems as though he is on an untouchable pedestal in some people's eyes...

blubirde · Chanel

D wrote:

blubirde wrote:

I agree with you, D, 100%. I abhor the use of "terms of endearment" in casual settings. I think it's demeaning, condescending, and sexist. If any man ever calls me "hon" or "sweetie" or "darlin'," you can bet your ass I'm responding in like, i.e. "no problem, sweet cheeks." Or, if I'm in a more confrontational mood, I'll tell the person to refrain from calling me that, period.

If it were anyone else they'd be on my hate list right now.

Blubirde - I love your honesty -- I almost came back on to ask "how would you feel if it were bush saying that?" since so many are infatuated with obama...

jj - I really don't think there's a male equivalent to "sweetie" or "hon" -- if you wouldn't address a man with "sweetie" or "hon", then don't say it to a woman, IMO. ESPECIALLY in a professional context.

Oh god. I'd lose my sh*t if Bush said something like that. I believe that Bush and Obama are two very different people though. To be fair, I'd expect something like that from Bush (for a variety of reasons, one of which being that he's a good 'ole boy), and it's a little more disappointing coming from Obama. I hold him in much higher esteem than Bush, so it's a bitter pill to swallow. But, again, since I don't think it comes from a sexist place, I forgive.

jj - No. I wouldn't react the same if a woman called me "sweetie." But just like I wouldn't like it if a woman called me a bitch, I'd take it a lot better than if a man did it.

relrel - I know what you're talking about. I think Obama is one of those people (what's the word?) who is an adapter for lack of a better word. There's a specific word to describe what I'm talking about but I can't think of it offhand. Basically it describes people who adapt to the people they're talking to. For instance, around my older, more rural family members, I start to lose the last letters of words (i.e. playing becomes playin', etc.), talk slower, and tell more stories - all key characteristics of their communication skills. When I'm around lawyers, I use legal terms and talk a little quicker. I adapt my conversation and communication styles to the people I'm around. I'd buy that he's this type of person too. I also believe he was using the phrase to attempt to be nice to her. That doesn't change the way I feel about it, but I agree with your points.

-- Edited by blubirde at 23:44, 2008-05-20

Hermes

Saw this article in the paper over the weekend - thought I'd share...

MITCH ALBOM

I'd call you, but I don't know what

BY MITCH ALBOM FREE PRESS COLUMNIST May 18, 2008

So what CAN you call someone today? When Barack Obama used the word "sweetie" in addressing a Detroit TV reporter last week, it made national headlines. He was scolded by the media. Fingers wagged. Tongues clucked.

"Uh-uh-uh," the conscience-makers said, "you're stepping over the line."

And maybe he was.

But where is the line?

I've been thinking ever since this happened about the things we call each other when we call each other, and it seems they are all bad at one point or another.

For example, "honey." This is OK when it comes from your grandmother, your aunt or the chain-smoking, lipsticked, old blonde waitress in Las Vegas who says, "Honey, pass me that ketchup bottle, will ya?"

But from a politician, a business associate or a stranger on a bus, it's bad.

How about "babe" or "baby"? This seems OK when it comes from your grandmother, your aunt or the bad-haired record producer with sunglasses on the other side of the booth who says, "Great take, babe" or "Baby, you're a star!"

But from a politician, a business associate or a stranger on a bus, it's bad.

Ditto for kiddo

How about "sugar" or "gorgeous" or "cutie pie"? Again, these are OK from your grandmother, your aunt or the 80-year-old immigrant dressmaker who says, "OK, gorgeous, are you ready for your fitting?"

But from a politician, a business associate or a stranger on a bus, they're bad.

How about "kiddo"? This is also OK from your grandmother, aunt or the old professor who puts his arm around you and says, "Listen, kiddo, the world is a tough place."

But from a politician, business associate or stranger on a bus, "kiddo" is demeaning, right?

And is the professor allowed to put his arm around you?

It seems pretty clear that only grandmothers and aunts can say anything they want to people -- especially women. But this issue is hardly gender-specific. Men are bothered by certain catch words as well.

For example, "bro." If a white guy calls a black guy "bro," eyebrows will raise. If a young man calls an older man "bro"-- same thing. But if two young guys are talking sports at a bar, they can toss around "bro" like a football, and no one will care.

What about "buddy"? If a homeless man asks, "Buddy, can you spare a dime?" they're liable to write a song about it. (I think they did.) But if the guy sitting next to you at the office says, "Hey, buddy, you mind not squeaking in your chair so much?" you want to slug him.

Ma'am can be a slam

I read once that Babe Ruth used to call people "jidge," which was actually what people called him, and thus he avoided having to remember anyone's name. It also had the benefit of not being insulting, because, hey, if it was good enough for the Babe, why not you?

Besides, titles can make you stumble. Dennis Archer and I met many years ago -- before he became mayor of Detroit -- in the bathroom at a charity event. We lined up next to each other at the, uh, facilities. I introduced myself as "Mitch," he did the same as "Dennis." We did not, given the circumstances, shake hands.

But ever since then, whenever I see him, I have never been able to call him "mayor," even though decorum might suggest it. I keep remembering that bathroom. And to me, he will always be "Dennis."

And let's be honest, some people don't want to be addressed in the proper manner. I know lots of women over 40 who, if you call them "ma'am," might tear your head off. They would rather hear "sweetie" than "ma'am." "Ma'am" means they're old, whereas "sweetie" just means you're a jerk.

So I guess it's like that old comic routine from the '70's. "You can call me Ray, or you can call me Jay, or you can call me Johnny ... but you doesn't have to call me Johnson."

I never knew what that meant.

And I don't know what to call anybody.

STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

Personally, I think that his use of sweetie is condescending and sexist - he'd never say that to a man would he? What do you think about this?

Obama's 'Sweetie': Spontaneous or Sexist?