STYLETHREAD -- LET'S TALK SHOP!

Kitty · Hermes

going vegetarian (kind of)

Hermes

Elle wrote:

I don't think the point is completely eliminating all cholesterol from the diet, and that doesn't sound (to me) like what D was looking to do. There's lots of room to reduce in a healthy-normal diet before you reach total elimination.

I wonder how the plant estrogens in soy would affect your system, D ...? Would likely be fine in moderation IMO but I wonder if your docs would be able to point to any studies that give general recommendations, if there are any?

I can ask Mr. Elle (who is in this whole cholesterol/cardio biz) to see if there's anything of interest in his professional journals, if you'd like.

Yeah, I'm not really looking to cut out all cholesterol, I was just more seriously considering pescetarianism for a healthier, lower saturated fat/cholesterol diet. I've already cut out cheese, and I only use fat-free milk -- but calcium is extremely important as a symptom surgical menopause is drastic bone loss (I'm taking calcium supplements and exercising to help combat that as well.)

You know, Elle -- with all the doctors I've had to see in the past year and a half, I feel like I'm hiring mechanics, some of whom are up-to-date specialists, but I don't blindly follow what they say. I do my own research to support their advice -- so, yes (in a roundabout way) I would be interested in your husbands professional journal information.

I didn't think about the plant estrogens in soy -- and I've been eating it fairly often (miso soup and edamame) -- I was warned not to take the natural supplements or plant estrogen (because my cancer was estrogen receptor positive...) so estrogen is high in soy? I did not know that.

One item that conflicts popular thought is that eggs increase cholesterol -- there are studies out there that dispute that.

This is also an interesting article in regard to fish oil (and yes, my triglycerides are high too):

Does Fish Oil Raise Cholesterol?

by Dr. William Davis
Monday, November 12, 2007

Katie had an LDL of 87 mg/dl, HDL of 48 mg/dl, triglycerides of 201 mg/dl. By conventional standards, not too bad.

Reading about the heart health benefits of omega-3 fatty acids, Katie added fish oil. With the preparation she bought, 4000 mg per day provided 1200 mg the omega-3 fatty acids, EPA and DHA. Three months later her LDL was 118 mg/dl, HDL 54 mg/dl, triglycerides 92 mg/dl.

In other words, LDL cholesterol increased by 31 mg. What happened?

Several studies have, indeed, confirmed that fish oil raises LDL cholesterol, usually by 5-10 mg/dl. Occasionally, it may be as much as 20 or more milligrams, as in Katie's case, enough for some people to be scared away from continuing this supplement.

Unfortunately, many physicians often assume that it's the (minor) cholesterol content of fish oil capsules, or some vague, undesirable effect of fish oil. It's nothing of the kind. And, if you were to rely on basic cholesterol values, it does indeed appear to be the case.

But it's not.

What has happened is that triglycerides have been reduced. Triglycerides occur in particles called very low-density lipoproteins (VLDL) and intermediate-density lipoproteins (IDL). Given Katie's high triglyceride level of 201 mg/dl before fish oil, we can safely assume that VLDL and perhaps IDL (a less common pattern) were also elevated in Katie's blood. Fish oil effectively reduces triglycerides, as it did in Katie, and VLDL and IDL are also reduced. Since LDL particles start out as VLDL particles (the first particle that emerges from the liver), fish oil can cause a "shift" of particles from VLDL to LDL. Thus, the apparent rise in LDL.

Another factor: Conventional LDL cholesterol is a calculated value, not measured. (Many people are surprised when they first hear this.) The calculation for LDL is thrown off-sometimes considerably-by any reduction in HDL or rise in triglycerides from average values. In Katie's case, the rise in HDL from 48 to 54 mg/dl along with the reduction in triglycerides from 201 to 92 mg/dl mean that calculated LDL has become more accurate and rises towards the true measured value. The actual rise in true LDL cholesterol may be small to none.

Omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil therefore provide the appearance of raising LDL cholesterol, but the actual-measured-rise is usually small to none.

Omega-3 fatty acids have been convincingly shown to reduce risk of heart attack, stroke, heart rhythm disorders, and are powerful tools to reduce triglycerides. It's a shame to avoid this wonderfully effective and healthy tool because of the appearance of rising cholesterol.

Hermes

Elle - I found this too:

Animal Research Suggests Plant Estrogens In Soy Do Not Increase Breast Cancer Risk

ScienceDaily (Jul. 6, 2004) WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. Research in monkeys suggests that a diet high in the natural plant estrogens found in soy does not increase the risk of breast or uterine cancer in postmenopausal women.

"This is convincing evidence that at dietary levels, the estrogens found in soy do not stimulate cell growth and other markers for cancer risk," said Charles E. Wood, D.V.M., lead researcher, from Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center. "The findings should be especially interesting to women at high risk for breast cancer who take soy products."

The research is reported in the current issue of The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism.

Wood said there has been much debate about whether high levels of dietary soy are safe for postmenopausal women. Soy products are sold as a natural alternative to traditional hormone therapy. The most common form of hormone therapy, estrogen plus a progestin, has been shown to increase risk of breast cancer. Soy and some other plants contain estrogen-like compounds called isoflavones or phytoestrogens.

These plant estrogens are thousands of times weaker than the estrogen produced by the body, but may be present in much higher concentrations in the blood. Evidence about their safety has been mixed. It is known that populations that typically consume diets high in soy have lower rates of breast cancer. On the other hand, some studies have shown that soy isoflavones can stimulate breast cancer cells grown in the laboratory.

"Evidence from observational studies in women indicates that soy intake may help prevent breast cancer," said Wood. "But there has still been reluctance to conduct research studies in women because of concerns that isoflavones may stimulate breast cell growth and increase the risk of breast cancer."

Wood and colleagues measured how a diet high in soy isofllavones affected markers for breast and uterine cancer risk in postmenopausal monkeys. The monkeys ate one of three diets for three years: soy that didn't contain isoflavones, soy with the isoflavones intact, or soy without isoflavones, but with Premarin, or estrogen therapy, added.

The isoflavone group consumed the human equivalent of about 129 milligrams a day, more than most people would get in a soy-rich diet.

The researchers measured breast density, numbers of dividing breast and uterine cells, and levels of the estrogen produced by the body all markers for cancer risk. Monkeys on the soy plus estrogen diet had increased levels of all markers, while monkeys that ate soy with isoflavones did not.

In fact, the monkeys eating soy with isoflavones had lower levels of the estrogen produced by the body. High levels of this estrogen are considered an important predictor of breast cancer risk in postmenopausal women.

"These findings suggest that high dietary levels of soy isoflavones do not increase markers for breast and uterine cancer risk in postmenopausal monkeys and may contribute to an estrogen profile associated with reduced breast cancer risk," said the researchers.

Wood said it is important to note that the research addressed the effects of plant estrogens on normal breast tissue, and not in breast cancer.

"A big unanswered question is whether it is safe for breast cancer survivors to turn to soy," he said.

Researchers are not certain how plant estrogens and the estrogen produced by the body, or given in pills, act together. One theory is that the plant estrogens bind to cells that have estrogen receptors, such as breast tissue, and block the effects of the other types of estrogen. Isoflavones may also help reduce the amount of active estrogen in the body.

To investigate these ideas, Wood and colleagues are currently looking at whether soy may block breast cell proliferation induced by estrogen therapy.

Other researchers involved the study included J. Mark Cline, Ph.D., D.V.M., Mary S. Anthony, Ph.D., Thomas C. Register, Ph.D., and Nancy D. Kock, Ph.D., D.V.M., all from Wake Forest Baptist.

The research was funded by grants from the National Institutes of Health.

Adapted from materials provided by Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center.

Elle · Hermes

D wrote:

You know, Elle -- with all the doctors I've had to see in the past year and a half, I feel like I'm hiring mechanics, some of whom are up-to-date specialists, but I don't blindly follow what they say. I do my own research to support their advice -- so, yes (in a roundabout way) I would be interested in your husbands professional journal information.
I

I don't think it ever crossed my mind that you would blindly follow what anyone said

! Even a doctor, after all this time. Good to know that soy isn't supposed to be an issue in this situation, at least not what you'd consume on a dietary level. You'll have to let me know if you dive into tempeh or seitan, which I am afraid of for some reason and haven't yet tried. Looks like it can be good, but I still find it a little weird.

My favorite place to go and peruse new food items is New Seasons (just like Whole Foods). That's how we ended up with bulghur, persimmons, kale, quinoa at our house because I probably wouldn't have thought to seek them out. I try to pick out a new grain from the bulk section or some new produce each time I go, just to test it out. It's kind of like world travelling for your stomach, or something. Their deli counter is also an intersting place to check out, just for meal ideas.

I'll ask hubby to check around a bit, D

.

Hermes

Elle wrote:

D wrote:

You know, Elle -- with all the doctors I've had to see in the past year and a half, I feel like I'm hiring mechanics, some of whom are up-to-date specialists, but I don't blindly follow what they say. I do my own research to support their advice -- so, yes (in a roundabout way) I would be interested in your husbands professional journal information.
I
I don't think it ever crossed my mind that you would blindly follow what anyone said ! Even a doctor, after all this time. Good to know that soy isn't supposed to be an issue in this situation, at least not what you'd consume on a dietary level. You'll have to let me know if you dive into tempeh or seitan, which I am afraid of for some reason and haven't yet tried. Looks like it can be good, but I still find it a little weird.

My favorite place to go and peruse new food items is New Seasons (just like Whole Foods). That's how we ended up with bulghur, persimmons, kale, quinoa at our house because I probably wouldn't have thought to seek them out. I try to pick out a new grain from the bulk section or some new produce each time I go, just to test it out. It's kind of like world travelling for your stomach, or something. Their deli counter is also an intersting place to check out, just for meal ideas.

I'll ask hubby to check around a bit, D .

Thanks Elle -- this statement at the end of the article still concerns me though, "A big unanswered question is whether it is safe for breast cancer survivors to turn to soy." I probably should stay away from it... What I don't get is why no Dr. told me to stay away from soy -- hence the feeling that I'm on my own, to do my own research, and hire them as mechanics...

wicked · Coach

Since you mentioned oats I wanted to share a recipe for granola bars that I "found" a couple weeks ago.

http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Granola-Bars-III/Detail.aspx?strb=3&ac_action=lgn

I modified it and only use 1/4 C Oil and 1/4 C Brown Sugar

Elle · Hermes

I think some docs forget to review the big picture, and end up treating only the problems people have and not the whole person. There are doctors for cancer. There are doctors for gyn issues. I guess maybe an internist or PCP would end up being the "Now what?" doctor. Because you haven't gone to enough appointments with enough docs already, of course.

I found this same sentiment in a few different articles (culled from WebMD) but this is from an American Cancer Society article:
"Keep soy intake moderate if you've had breast cancer. Up to three daily servings of soy foods, such as tofu and soy milk, may be OK, but it may be prudent to avoid high doses of soy in soy powders and supplements."

cc · Marc Jacobs

Maybe it was already mentioned and I missed it but I think Vegetarian Times is a great resource. Some of the articles can be a bit too rah rah but most of the topics are interesting and I've had good luck with recipes. You can also check out their website which has a "Vegetarian Starter Guide" and a lot of recipes, all of which include the nutritional info.

Suasoria · Chanel

Elle wrote:

Do you generally follow a more vegan-style diet, Suasoria? Not trying to be snarky, honest.

No snark taken! Almost completely vegan, these days. And we're trying to eat more raw foods too. DH has found it to be hugely helpful for his chronic headaches and stomach/digestive problems. Plus, my FIL had his fourth heart surgery last week yet won't change his "healthy" low-carb diet, and my husband will do anything to avoid the family destiny of bypasses, heart attacks, etc.

My understanding is cholesterol is cholesterol when it's in food. It's what happens to it in the body that matters. That's where the saturated fats/trans fats enter the picture. The body itself produces enough cholesterol without needing to supplement it with food.

The main health concern I have with fish and shellfish is their exposure to environmental pollutants that are potential neurotoxins. If seafood was in my diet, I would also add a lot of antioxidants, beta-carotene, and chlorella or spirulina.

I don't even like giving my cat seafood-based cat food.

If I weren't veg, I think the only thing I would eat would be lean, organic, grass-fed beef at this point.

Hermes

LDL Cholesterol Levels

Farrah · Marc Jacobs

RE: going vegetarian (kind of)

greendiamond · Marc Jacobs

Holy Moley, those results are incredible. Congratulations, D!

ico · Dooney & Bourke

I am probably a little late, but here it is my opinion.

Last time I had my blood drawn, the doctor saw that although my levels of total cholesterol, LDL and HDL were fine, the "good" cholesterol was tending a little towards the lower limit. He said nothing too bad, but I should have tried to limit the amount of cheese, if possible, but mainly tried to UPPER THE LEVER OF PHYSICAL ACTIVITY - and that's also what the nurse who saw the results told me. Nothing crazy like training for a thriatlon, but sonethings along the lines of -join a gym, walk more, etc.

As for the vegetarianism, I was eating vegan for a year and felt great. I was relying much more on other legumes (beans, peas, lentils, chickpeas, etc.) than on soy - part of the medical world is still uncertain on the long-term effect of soy, which contains phytoextrogens (vegetal extrogens), and I think, D., you should really talk to your doctor about whether is the case or not to add soy to your diet. I was drinking rice or almond milk.

After a while, I had no problems in eating out either, just learned what/how to order in a nice way. it helped that I was working at Cornell University a lot, and being Ithaca a very hippie place,it's full of vegetarian restaurant.
I also tried lots of new recipes, mainly asian ones, but that's because I find cooking very relaxing and I enjoied that a lot. Throughout all this, I never found I was lacking variety.
I stopped eating vegan because I started having incredible cravings for fish, in particular salmon. Probably I was eating not enough proteing nor fat, and too many carbs.

I think eliminating meat and eating fish is not a bad idea, especially in the US. In EU the rules about feeding hormons to kettle are much stricter than in the US, and that's because the US government didn't believe the results of a study that demonstrated hormons feeded to kettle were bad for humans who'd eat it.

Just make sure you buy wild fish. Doesn't need to be wild salmon, which is crazy expensive: even the smallest, less "noble" fish, such as sardines, are very good for you.

Sorry, I think I got too long... it's just that it's a topic I am very passionate about. smile

hth

Elle · Hermes

Wow, D! Congratulations! Those are amazing results, way better than any doctor would hope for on cholesterol meds, even.

Do you feel any different?

Hermes

Elle wrote:

Wow, D! Congratulations! Those are amazing results, way better than any doctor would hope for on cholesterol meds, even.

Do you feel any different?

Thanks, Farrah and GD!

Actually, I need to clarify, my LDL was actually 190 before, and went down to 105 (just got the report in the mail.) Still excellent results.

As far as feeling different, I feel pretty healthy in general. The change in diet and increased exercise have me feeling much better overall, and I don't miss meat a bit :)

I did have a dream the other night that I mindlessly ate an arby's burger of all things. I would have never eaten one even when I was eating meat! Anyway, I was very mad at myself that I could have slipped like that. I was very happy to wake up and realize it was just a dream!